Transcript
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The conversation opens with Alex explaining that he is open to God without claiming belief, while Joe pushes him to consider surrendering. They debate what it means to be open, agnostic, and willing to explore spiritual claims.
Speaker A
Right now I don't believe it's true, but I want to say I'm open to it.So let's say, okay, I'm going to trial a policy for the next week.I'm going to surrender to God.What do I do?Like in practice?Like what would.
Speaker B
Literally what I would say, saying those phrases with conviction, like genuinely meaning it.I surrender to God.But how can you surrender?What do you mean?
Speaker A
How can you mean it if you, if you haven't actually surrendered yet?
Speaker C
So Alex o' Connor sat down with Joe Weller and what starts as a calm chat about God is turns into Alex quietly asking one question nobody in the room can answer.If you don't know Alex, he's the atheist who built his whole following on staying polite while taking arguments apart piece by piece.Joe keeps pushing him to just surrender to God and see what happens.And Alex keeps saying, okay, fine, but tell me what that actually means.
That's the whole fight, not whether God is real, but whether you can surrender to something before you even believe it's there.Stick around for the last few minutes because that's where Alex flips Joe's own WI Fi analogy right back on him and it gets genuinely funny.Here's my question for you before you watch.If someone told you to just surrender to God, what would you even do?No, wrong answer.
I just want to hear how you'd handle it.Alright, let's get into it.
Speaker B
Your belief is, I guess at this point that he doesn't exist.But I know you're open to being a believer if you were ever.
Speaker A
I mean, my belief is that like, I don't know if I would say I believe he doesn't exist.Right?I'm not going to say I, I have this belief God doesn't exist.I'm just going to say I don't have this belief that God does exist.For example, do you think that there is somebody in the toilet currently in the building next door to this one?Like, you know, are you convinced of that?Like if I, if I said, do you believe that's true?You would say, no.I say, oh, so you think it's false?No, no, you just.Agnostic.Right.And so somebody might give you a good reason as to why there's someone in the toilet.Oh, I thought I heard the chain flush.And then somebody else might say, oh, but you know, that could be explained by this or that, and that, that's kind of what we're doing here.
So my position is like us with the person in the toilet Next door.
Speaker B
I wouldn't say just like a positional thing.So as in knowing that something's over there.Whereas like it's not just knowing, oh, there's some God like over in the room over there.It's more of like reasoning.I don't know, how would you put it into words?Like the effects, like people would say that they experience what would be, you know, they describe as the guidance of a higher power or, you know, so it's not just like, oh, there's someone over there that we can't see.So because it's not tangible, it might or may or may not be.
Speaker A
Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker B
It's like, no, this experience, this energy, this.
Speaker A
Yeah.
What I'm saying is because I haven't felt anything like that or I haven't seen that kind of thing open to it.
Speaker B
Have you like gone looking for it?Have you ever have, you know, gone down that part?
Speaker A
Yeah, you know, like to the extent that I.It's difficult to know because a lot of people say, well, you think you're trying but you're not open enough.And I think I've tried.I really, really think I've tried.
Speaker B
And how did you try?
Speaker A
Firstly, really important is being open to it.Like when you were telling us about your experience and even my listeners might be surprised to hear me say, like, oh, maybe it was true.
Right.But like if we're going to have this conversation, you at least need to try to put that hat on for that conversation, otherwise it's going to be pointless.Right.And so in religion, the first step
Speaker B
is to actually religion and God or
Speaker A
God, sorry, I should say, yeah, God's existence or even just non material spiritual, whatever the first step is going to be.Like, in order to say that you've tried it, you need to have first put yourself in a position where you believe in its plausibility.
Alex describes how he has tried to be open through theology and reflection, while Joe argues that real faith requires surrender. The discussion turns to whether someone can meaningfully test religion without already believing in it.
Speaker A
I think there's so much weird stuff in the universe that I very much believe in the plausibility of consciousness being immaterial of the existence of God.I think that's true.And then being open to it just, I suppose means not shutting down any opportunities to explore that.So if you start feeling a bit funny, a lot of people's like religious experiences happen in a.What do they call it, a hypergogic state, I think, which is between dreaming and waking.So you start having a bit of a sort of, you're sort of dreaming and you know, sometimes you have a dream and you weren't sure it was a dream, like a false awakening and you Wake up and you, you know, you check your phone and someone sent you a text and then you wake up again and there's no text.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Where you couldn't quite tell if it was it, but it's like weirdly vivid.Right.So a lot of people have visions in those experiences and you could wake up and if.If I had such an experience where I woke up and I had a text from Jesus that said, you know, I love you.And then I was like, fuck me.I went back to sleep and then I woke up, I was like, bloody hell, that.And I looked and it wasn't there.I could just go, oh, that was definitely.That was just a dream.That was nothing.Or I could go, well, hold on, let's really explore this.Was I definitely asleep?How vivid was it?It was a uniquely vivid dream.Do I think that it's.You have to at least be willing to explore that kind of thing.Now, I've never had an experience like that, but if I did, my openness hopefully would extend to taking seriously the possibility that maybe that was actually some kind of spiritual vision.
You know what I mean?
Speaker B
Yeah, but I think people that believe in God don't go, oh, yeah, I believe because, like, Jesus texts me.No, I think.
Speaker A
But most people have some kind of experience.
Speaker B
Right.
Speaker A
And I've just never had such an experience.
Speaker B
But you said you gave it a go to, like, put that hat on, like, what did you do to.To give that a go?
Speaker A
Well, there are a few ways to answer that question.
One is to say that, like, I got a degree in theology, right.I tried my best.
Speaker B
Most people would say it's a case of, like, surrendering, going, I surrender to God.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
I surrender to the fact that I don't have it all figured out and I am open to, like, God's plan for me or something.You know, completely surrendering.That's how a lot of people would describe their, like actually diving in head first and giving it a go.Have you ever done anything like that?
Speaker A
No, because of the fact that, like, in order to, as you put it, surrender to something and people like, you know, like Christians will listen to what you're saying.Go, yes, yes, yes.That's Alex's problem.He needs to surrender to Christ.And maybe they're right.Maybe if I surrendered to Christ, whatever that means in practice, I would become a Christian.But the problem is, right, I think I've done as much as can be expected of a non believer or close to it.Maybe I haven't, but.But I like to think that I've done a lot.That like, a lot more than the average atheist should be expected to do.Right.Okay, so you're an atheist.Well, how do you know?Oh, well, you should go to church and see, it's like, is there any sense of fear?Fear of what?
Speaker B
Of going.Surrender.Because the idea of especially, like, as a, as a territorial man, like the idea of, you know, I want to protect myself, I want to surrender.What?Yeah, like, is that.Is there as an element of like, I don't even want to experiment doing that.Because if I was like, Alex, for the next month.
Yeah, four times a day say the same phrases that basically.Like, say the phrase that basically, I surrender to God, I am open to being guided just to see if it is real.
Speaker A
Okay, so, but to me, those are two different things, right?Saying I could say four or five times a day, I am open to being guided.You know, God, if you're there, please, please let me in.You know, I could do that.But saying I surrender to God, what does that mean?
The analysis explains Alex's distinction between being open and claiming belief, then focuses on the practical problem of surrendering to God. It argues that the instruction keeps shifting and that Joe's strongest evidence is a personal feeling of clarity, not proof of God.
Speaker C
Okay, look, right out of the gate, Alex o' Connor does something most people in these debates never do.And it tells you he actually thinks for a living.Joe Weller keeps trying to box him in as the guy who flat out claims there is no God.And Alex just will not take the bait.Alex said this.I don't have this belief that God does exist.You catch that?He is not claiming to will.
No, there is no God.He is saying, nobody has handed him a reason to believe there is one.And man, that tiny distinction is the whole ball game.Here is what gets me.Alex throws out this little analogy about whether there is a person sitting in the toilet in the building next door.
Sounds silly.It is actually surgical.You do not believe someone is in there, but you are also not out here swearing.Nobody is.You just withhold until there is evidence.
That is not arrogance.That is the most honest thing a person can say.Real quick, if this breakdown is doing it for you.So smash that like button and subscribe because we are just getting warmed up.Now here is the educational bit, because Alex is basically rebranding a famous idea.
Decades ago, the philosopher Bertrand Russell made nearly the same point with a teapot.He said, imagine I told you, there is a tiny teapot orbiting the sun, too small for any telescope to ever spot.You could not disprove it.But does that mean you have to believe it?Of course not.
The person making the wild claim carries the weight, not you.That is burden of proof, and Alex is standing on it.The entire night.Then Joe pivots hard into surrender.He says, I surrender to God.
I surrender to the fact that I do not have it all figured out.Completely surrendering.And to his credit, Alex does not laugh.Alex even admits this.Maybe if I surrendered to Christ, I would become a Christian.
That is a guy playing fair.But watch what happens the second Alex asks one simple follow up.Because that is where the whole thing starts to wobble.
Speaker A
What does it mean?Like, how would I.So right now I don't believe it's true, but I want to say I'm open to it.So let's say, okay, I'm going to trial a policy for the next week.I'm going to surrender to God.What do I do?Like, in practice?Like, what would.
Speaker B
Literally what I would say, saying those phrases with conviction, like genuinely meaning it.I surrender to God.But how can you.I surrender.
What do you mean?
Speaker A
How can you mean it if you, if you haven't actually surrendered yet?
Speaker B
So, so for example, the one that's just said I put the hat on.So I've like done the research.
Speaker A
So what I mean by putting the hat on is putting the, the, the hat on of, of taking a position which I might otherwise think is implausible and treating it as though it might be plausible and saying like, even if all my instincts are telling me that's complete bs, that's nonsense, I'm going to put the hat on of being like, okay, let's consider if this might be true.That's different from saying I'm going to put the hat on of saying it is true.You know, so, so suppose.I don't know.Have you ever tried being a Muslim?
Speaker B
No.
Speaker A
Okay, so why don't for the next week you surrender to God in like an Islamic sense, You know, like submission to.I mean, Islam means submission.It would require a different kind of thing to.I don't know what your religious convictions are right now, but you're not a Muslim.So for the next week, just, just surrender to, to God.To Allah, which is just the Arabic word for God, of course.Like, would you do that?Or if you did, like, how would you do that?
Speaker B
Oh, I mean, I'm not sure about like the Islam faith.And how would go around doing that?
I mean, I don't necessarily like, prescribe to an actual religion, so to speak.I believe.I mean, that's a whole other conversation.I'm open to anything.I think that's the thing.Like, I accept that I don't have it figured out.
Speaker A
So you.But you can then be open to something.You'd be open to the truth of Islam or Christianity or something without having to say, like, I surrender to this thing and I've given it a go in that respect.You can still meaningfully say I'm open to it without even.And if somebody says, well, have you ever surrendered to it?And you go, well, no, but I don't think that rules out my openings.
Speaker B
If we're saying, like, the concept of God.Because imagine, right, Imagine all of us don't realize that, like, imagine we're trying to figure life out and have it everything.Well, yeah, figure everything out the best we can with our little, like, pea brain and that's all we've got.
But there is this higher power that if we allow in, can guide us in a way that we could never even comprehend trying to do so.It's like the same power as like 5 million of our own brain.Imagine there is that, but we're too proud to go, no, no, I don't.I don't want to comprehend that because that's ridiculous.And I've got too much scientific evidence that that's ridiculous.Like, imagine we're just missing out on that guidance.Imagine we're missing out on that.What could be.That's why I'm like, I'm very open to just exploring these things and, like, giving it a go.And I've definitely noticed.I mean, I have never really been someone that's like, religious or like 100 there's a God.There isn't, but, like, giving it a go and I've gone, okay, let me just try this.Why not give it a go?
So let me surrender.Let me just see what happens.
And one thing I will say, when I did give that a go, there's a lot of clarity, a lot of clarity, clarity that came through of knowing what I want, what I'm getting pulled to do things that are like that.I'm getting a lot of fruit of my labor and things that weren't necessarily just selfish things, things that were having a positive impact in the world, but also feeding me.I mean, I've just gone to do this Uganda wrestling video where I've ended up, like, finding this, essentially this community that have made a whole entire wrestling organization out of nothing, but along the way found out that they have no health and safety services.And it's tied in amazingly well to make this video.Not only to make my wrestling debut.I love wrestling.Something I've never really had the courage to, like, pursue, but I really got A pull to do this.
And also we're raising funds for them to buy an ambulance and emergency care.And, and we're making like a really positive impact.And I'm like, that idea and that, that pull to do that didn't just come into.I didn't just think of that.I didn't just go, I'm just going to do this.And I wonder if these ways that we get pulled to do certain things, there is a higher power that if we allow in, can influence us in certain ways.I don't know.
Speaker A
Maybe.Maybe the answer is to my question, like, we surrender to what is the most fundamental thing.Right, okay.And I'm saying, well, I don't know if that's possible.Like, you kind of have to be convinced that something exists in order to surrender to it.Like if I said, you know, will you surrender yourself to the police officer outside?
And you're like, I don't think there is a police officer outside.I would just surrender to him anyway.You'd be like, I kind of literally can't.Because if I don't believe he's there, I can't like, surrender to him.
Speaker B
Isn't that everyone who, everyone who does start believing or surrenders to God has to come from a place of not surrendering to God.So until you've surrendered and until you've actually done it, you can't go.I, I know for sure that there is a. Yeah, but that for me
Speaker A
is the great catch 22, which is that I feel like I need to think that the thing exists in order to surrender to it.But I'm sometimes paid to surrender to it in order to think that it exists.
Speaker C
This is the moment the wheels come off and I need you to really sit with it.
Alex asks the most basic question a reasonable person could ask.He says, fine, I will trial surrendering to God for a week.What do I actually do physically, practically?What is the action?And Joe's answer?
Joe said this.Saying those phrases with conviction, genuinely meaning it.Come on, man.You see the problem.Alex catches it instantly.
Alex said this.How can you mean it if you have not actually surrendered yet?And that is checkmate on that point.You cannot sincerely mean I surrender to a thing you are not yet convinced exists.It is like telling someone to be head over heels in love with a stranger they have never met.
The sincerity has nowhere to land.There is nothing there to point it at.And here is what people do not realize about why this matters so much.The instruction keeps quietly moving the goalposts.First, it Is be open.
Cool.Alex is open.Then it is no, no surrender.Then it is surrender, but also truly mean it from the heart.Every time Alex clears the bar, a new bar appears.
That is not a road to truth.That is a maze with no exit built.So you can always be told you just did not try hard enough.
Joe's Wi-Fi analogy is introduced and then dismantled as Alex asks for concrete instructions that never arrive. The video concludes that openness is not the same as belief on command, and that Alex wins by insisting on clear meaning rather than vague spiritual language.
Speaker C
Now, Joe plays his strongest card.And I will be fair here, he says when he gave surrender a real shot, he felt a lot of clarity, felt pulled toward meaningful projects, felt like something was guiding him.
And honestly, I believe he felt that.I am not going to tell a grown man he did not feel what he felt.But feeling something and that feeling being caused by a God are two totally different claims.Here is the move your brain pulls when you commit hard to any direction.Religious or not, you get clarity because you finally stopped second guessing.
Athletes get it.People who pick a career after years of drifting get it.The clarity is real.The source is the open question.Alex is the only one in the room keeping those two apart, which is exactly why he loops back to the trap.
Alex said this.I need to think the thing exists in order to surrender to it, but I need to surrender to it in order to think it exists.That is the catch 22.And Joe never actually answers it.
Speaker B
If you were a caveman, though, and you were told, like, mate, there's this, like, wi fi that's going to let you FaceTime your friend around the world right now, you'd be like, mate, I can't see what wi fi.I can't see that.That can't exist.It's not tangible.I can't see it.I don't believe it's there.
So therefore I'm not even going to try and like, FaceTime my friend, because what even is that?It's like that caveman can't comprehend the wi fi concept.So what I wonder is that like, yeah, because we can't comprehend, or we say we can't comprehend something because our brain is limited.We can't figure everything out.Yeah, just shutting off and going, I can't comprehend it, therefore it doesn't exist.Is that okay?
Speaker A
So suppose I do hear what you're saying, by the way, and I'm trying to unpack it, but I guess I'm trying to explain why I would defend the view that without having done exactly what you're asking for, I've still done a lot.I would say, for example, imagine that I said to you right now that that kind of wi fi thing doesn't exist.It's not wi Fi.It's some kind of, you know, let's call it fi y.
This thing which, like, exists and will allow you right now without.Without any use of any device or anything.You don't need to pick up the iPad.You can just right now communicate with someone, like, down the street, like, instantly.Right, okay.
And you say, I don't know about that.I don't really believe it.And I say, all you've got to do, just, like, just try it.Just surrender to it.And you're like, how do I.
Okay, like, like, how.What do you mean?I'm like, you just have to surrender to this thing.So, okay, well, how about how?Literally, like, how do I act?Like, where is it up here?Where is it?Like, how do I do I close my eyes?I'm like, oh, no.Because the thing that I'm describing is also, by the way, completely ineffable and beyond human comprehension.
But you just need to surrender to it.I'd be like, I'm not saying I don't want to, or like, I think that's a bad thing to do or whatever.I just mean, like, in practice, unless I have some comprehension of what it is that we're talking about, I just find it impossible.Like, how would you surrender to the fi y?Or how would you.If I said just.Just use it.Just try using the phi y, you'd be like, I want to.I'm open to it.If you show me, like, where it is and how I use it, maybe do I put my hands together?Do I.Do I need to, like, do a flappy motion like Spider man working out how to do that?But if.If there's no directional, you know, guidance, then.Then what?Exactly.And so what.I mean, I'm not saying there might not be an answer to this question, but I suppose that's what I'm asking you is specifically, what do you mean with, like, surrender to God?
You said, like, saying the phrase, but you can say the phrase and.And not and just say the words.So what do you mean?
Speaker B
Say, like, your parents when you were a child guiding you somewhere, you either do as you're told, and essentially you're surrendering by, like, following their guidance of, like, holding their hand as you cross the road or something?It's like, I don't know.I feel like there's.We, as we know when we're surrendering to something, people often feel we know when we're not.
Speaker A
When we're rebel being led somewhere.Right?Like, if you're.If you're Thinking if you're.You're starting to reflect on morality and you're.Maybe you read like the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads or the Quran or whatever.And then people say I just felt like I was sort of being led somewhere by this text.And maybe that's the thing that is required.You need to have this feeling that there is something which is guiding you, pulling you a bit like your.Your friend who is next to you in your psychedelic experience where like they're there, not physically, not in a way, but that there's just some way I can feel that it's there.
And to surrender to God is to allow yourself to follow that where it takes you.
Speaker C
Alright, Joe comes back swinging with his best analogy of the whole night and I want to give him real credit for how slick it sounds.He brings up the caveman.Imagine a caveman being told about Wi Fi, that you can FaceTime a friend across the planet through thin air.He cannot see it or touch it, so he calls it impossible and refuses to even try.
The point being, maybe God is the WI fi and we are the cavemen, too small brained to get it.On the surface that sounds like a mic drop.But watch Alex calmly take it apart, because this is a clinic.He flips it.He invents his own version, a made up power he calls FY something beyond comprehension that lets you talk to anyone instantly with no device.
And he asks the obvious.If you told me to just use it, just surrender to it, what do I physically do?Where is it?Do I close my eyes?The second he asks that, the caveman analogy folds in on itself.
Here is why, and this is the genuinely brilliant part.The WI FI comparison only works because WI fi comes with instructions.You hand the caveman a phone, show him the button and the call connects.Whether he understands the physics or not.It is testable.
It works on demand.Surrender to God has no manual, no button.Alex says it flat out.Alex said this.Unless I have some comprehension of what we are talking about, I just find it impossible.
That is not a closed mind.That is a man asking for one concrete instruction and getting fog back.And then Alex drops my favorite line of the entire exchange.He is half joking about what he is even supposed to do with his body to make this happen.And he goes, do I need to do a flappy motion like Spider Man?
It is funny, but it is doing serious work.He is showing there is no action, nothing to actually perform.The believer keeps saying, just do it.And the instant you ask how, the how vanishes into thin air, here is what I want you to walk away with.Notice who kept asking the honest questions and who kept sliding the target?
Alex o' Connor never mocked the experience, never called Joe a liar.He said, show me the action.Give me the method.Tell me what surrender is past.A feeling.
And Joe's final answer after everything is that to surrender to God is to allow yourself to follow where it takes you.And that is poetic.It really is.But it is not an answer.It is a vibe.
It describes a feeling and calls it a map for anyone sitting on the fence.That is the whole lesson.Being open is not the same as believing on command.Wanting something to be true does not build the road to it.Alex spent this entire conversation offering to walk through any door anyone could point to, and the one thing nobody could give him was the door.
He did not lose by being stubborn.He won by being the only person willing to ask what the words even mean.So what do you guys think of this?Leave your thoughts down in the comments.Please like and subscribe and I will see you in the next video.