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La anfitriona presenta la charla, explica el propósito de In Culture Company y introduce a las dos personas invitadas. También se enmarca el tema general: espiritualidad y religión en la isla.
okay and we're live good evening everybody this is um Alexis Francisco I'm here representing in culture company I welcome all of you to the live conversation tonight we have a really really special really special guest with us tonightto talk to us a little bit about virtuality on the island I'm gonna introduce them in just a second so we can get started but for those who don't know in culture company and this is the first timewith us just very very briefly in culture company we are committed to sowing seeds of peace cosmic resolution solidarity healing and liberation for the island of IEP quisqueya and we do that through community workshops and discussions educational resourcesand live discussions like these so tonight we're gonna be talking specifically about the spirituality and religion on the island with two really really special guests we have two practitioner scholars with us that are gonna share with us a
little bit about hey should we do and everything you see or days I'm gonna turn it over to them it should use themselves and then we can get started tonight anybody who's willing to go first can go aheadand start us off
how was the signal good evening everyone my name is dr.Kiera Malika Daniels I'm an assistant professor of art history and African and African Diaspora studies at Boston College with a courtesy appointment in theology and I'm also a practitioner of Asian will do and someone who's based here inthe Boston area of Massachusetts part of the community of associate dean ago hi everybody my name is Ivan besito a lot of the people know me as a musician of the tradition of the Lukumi Santeria afro-cuban but Iam also a musician and we thought to be of the Asian Dominican guru traditions I am a Papa vogue or the Tony the visions and I am also Volusia and Lumi tradition
awesome well thank you both so much for being here my name is Alexis and one of the facilitators foreign culture company and like I already mentioned tonight's conversation is actually part of a two-parter so stay tuned for theannouncement for the date part two but part one of our conversation on the religious dimensions of our culture and and lineage on both sides of the island of IET Cascadia and we're gonna be looking at the blue traditionand IP and I mean do any VC owners in what's now Dominican Republic buh-burn I turn it over to sort of start us off with an intro to sort of a spiritual landscape on the continent before we get
Kiera explica la diversidad de las religiones africanas y sus rasgos compartidos: Dios supremo, espíritus intermedios, ancestros y respeto por la naturaleza. También sitúa las raíces históricas de estas tradiciones en los pueblos africanos traídos por la esclavitud.
to dive wonderful well first I wanted to say thank you all so much for joining us for this lab conversation and so grateful to be a part of this conversation within culture company and within besito I think thatone of the things that's really important to understand about African religions is their diversity I think it's very easy to recognize that you know Africa is often abled as you know a country itself instead of a continent of55 different nations with remarkably different very age traditions of cultures languages and you know legacies and traditions but that said I think that there are also a lot of ways that African indigenous traditions really shares some common groundwith regards to the structure of the religious traditions one of the ones that you see this commonality is the understanding that there is often a Supreme God there is a highest God at times this God is considered to
be a creator at times this is the role of someone else but I think a lot of people who think about African religions as being pagan think of them as being pagan because there is no belief in asupreme god and in fact many African indigenous religions particularly of West and Central Africa do have this highest God then you have another layer of spirits who serve as intermediary roles they may be spirits of trees they maybe spirits of fire they may be spirits of metals they may be spirits of fortune love London's and these spirits are the ones to whom people pray and make themselves devoted to these are the intermediary energies if youwill that allow you to communicate most directly and very efficiently with the supreme guy but they also take care of sort of everyday matters and then you have the ancestors and I think that this is something that you
might consider to be the most accessible point of entry if you will for so many of us who know very little about Africana religions everybody has ancestors you know whether you believe in gods or spirits everybody has ancestorsand it's understood that while many ancestors and African religions are not necessarily regarded as being gods per se they are a part of the sort of cosmic fabric they are considered to play such an important role in guidingyour own path in being able to help remove obstacles from your path being able to help guide you offer you counsel advice about how to move forward and then I would include the natural environment as this entity thatwe must respect and we must regard with such appreciation for the life that it gives us for the way that nature sustains us I think that it's really important to think about the fact that so many indigenous religions
sometimes called earth-based traditions of Asia Latin America the African continent can be considered you know environmentalists to pre environmentalists Green before it was cool to be green in the sense that if you are honoring the river if youare honoring ocean who is the spirit of you know love and also warriors and the river then you know that you need to keep the rivers clean if you are going into the forest to collect medicines for healingthen it's important to know that you need to keep planting trees and you need to cut down only as many as will allow the force to continue sustaining itself right and so I think that there's a deep appreciationand a reverence for the natural environment that doesn't mean that Iraq is a god or that a tree is a God but it does mean that everything in the natural world is an entity to be respected to be
appreciated and to be valued for the work that it does and to know that you are new on this earth we humans are new on this earth you have to respect the animal kingdom you have to respect thenatural vegetal mineral elements of the world I would say that there are a number of different elements and activities of African religions that are mirrored in worlds traditions all over the globe things like an attention to healing somany people have a deep knowledge of pharmacology they study the plants they study the roots to think about how these can be used in medicinal fasts how these can be used to you know create cells for people howthey can be prayed over to provide blessings for people initiation rites play an extremely important role and it's understood that there are many initiations that people undergo throughout their life being born is in fact an initiation into the
worlds it's an initiation to what it means to be human right and then there's the initiation of puberty somebody I think that you know something that I think is really profound is a lot of healers and you knowtraditional priests and priestesses of Africana religions will say that the reason the world is in such chaos today is because we're not respecting the natural world that's what we're having so many natural disasters and because we don't allowpeople to have those formal recognized rules of initiation where they're you know recognized by the community they're being welcomed by the community they go through a hard challenging experience with others they build a sense of brotherhood and sisterhoodwith others from they initiate with and then move on into next stages of their lives we can think about marriage as initiation becoming a parent is initiation and finally even death as a form of initiation into ancestor hood
I think that there's a lot that can be said about the populations of Africans that were brought over as enslaved people's during the transatlantic slave trade to the Americas but very broadly speaking I think we can think aboutenslaved Africans coming from three very major civilizations particularly for the island of Hispaniola so the three sort of kingdoms that were considered to be especially important with Africans coming over it's a spaniel a lot were the Dahomey Kingdomcitizens who were from current-day Bay mean in certain parts of Nigeria people coming from the Yoruba kingdoms of southwestern Nigeria people coming from the Congo and in normal kingdoms of Democratic Republic of Congo Republic oh and I'm Golain central Africa so I'll stop there but I think that this is a really helpful entry point for us because it reminds us that these traditions of the Diaspora have really deep roots and share a great deal of
similarities with these African indigenous religions that continue to evolve you know that don't stay static in you know 1500 but I've continued to change and evolve even up until today I
Se aborda el desarrollo de las tradiciones en la isla tras la esclavitud, con énfasis en los cofradías dominicanas, la influencia católica y el surgimiento de vodú y las 21 divisiones. Ben Besito explica cómo estas prácticas se formaron y se nombraron en distintos contextos históricos.
think we might have lost Alexie's oh that's terrible well I think what was next was giving us an opportunity to talk about voodoo in Haiti and vodoun in the Dominican Republic so maybe even basic though you want totake on that next stage all right well um I'll touch a little bit I think we were getting back there we go all right on I mean y'all don't miss a beat that's perfect so yeah I am gonnathank you so much for that cure for laying the sort of the foundation of understanding the sort of shared roots of the different traditions that emerge that then go on to emerge after the transatlantic slave trade begins topeople begin to get taken from the continent over to these different places that they are taken in Latin America um so I do want to turn it over to you Ben besito to begin to set the stage for
us and what happens on the island of Haiti and also invite folks that are watching on the live right now as you're hearing what you're hearing if you have any questions go ahead and begin to drop that inthe comments interact with us and we'll engage those questions too as we go along let me see if I'll turn it over to you okay well I mean according to history everybody knows that point zero was uh whatis now Dominican Republic so so we have to always look at that people get caught up in in this whole you know Dominican issue and kind of forget that black history in America or African history in America didstart into the what is today Dominican Republic so you know those are things that we have to consider so obviously African spirituality at the point of a you know transatlantic slave trade starts obviously in the Dominican what is
the Dominican Republic today so the first according to what I researched the first spirituality variations that appear are obviously things called core ideas rowdy as our fraternities hmm and they are established by the church in the Dominican inin Santo Domingo these core ideas actually come from Spain and from what I've researched even in Spain before getting to the to the New World these gopher ideas were made up of many African era people mainly men ofcourse they started with you know the Europeans and Spaniards then they turn over into what is African slaves in Europe mainly Spain that's over to UM to Santo Domingo the first cofre dia recognized in the new world islaka Fra Diavolo Espiritu Santo the confronting of the Holy Spirit established in the city of Copley which was the first place that are received lots of or a big shipment let's say of African slaves for mining gold because
gold was the first thing that was going on before sugar and all that so this is where this gopher idea starts and many other copper ideas come up and these copper ideas are set up like I said bythe Catholic Church to kind of you can say control the slaves a little bit and have them gather and be overseen and whatnot then you have gopher ideas that come up by nations so some copra DEA's are madeup from the congos somewhere by Mina's etc etc just like you have any in Cuba the querido systems and these probably nuts yes this karate Azzam usually have a patron the biggest most popular patron was the the HolySpirit and there's a connection to the phone go already because the Congo you know according to against a history and a lot of people that I've spoken to was heavily Christianized and they were already kind of doing a
little bit of syncretism with their stuff so a lot of these phone calls that came to the new world already kind of had a concept of what was going on and they were able to merge the Holy Spiritwhich was a big entity or divinity for the Congo people all around them the Americas and especially in in in Hispaniola the the Holy Spirit was a big thing then you got wonderful frontiers like dedicated to San JuanBautista st.John the Baptist which is huge and there's many more but the biggest one that was spread out through Santo Domingo colony was the Holy Spirit that was the biggest one and it served at the network and they evenhad had a monocle in island which was the king mode of the tribes let's say of the Manila's which were the the maroon the maroon people and they established a lot of settlements so each each settlement had a
money but there was one money Congo for the whole island at you know my friend points and and the cofre vias are still in place today the first one is still there and then there's another one that's verypopular like over the other they'll then they look on Grove area mega which is recognized by UNESCO and that's kind of like how what we know today as African spirituality and the Caribbean started later on obviously I meanthese these were people of different ethnic groups and different traditions like you already mentioned and they started mingling and melding and you know like half it you know it happened all over the Americas obviously then you have thecolony of san domain and they start to import many more slaves because they have obviously shifted over to a sugar plantation which was a huge Santo Domingo it's kind of like in the background the abandoned Santo Domingo and
it's not producing anything so Santo Domingo becomes like a backyard of nothing it's an domain is where all the slaves are are coming in and this is where what we call wudu now it starts brewing and all thesetraditions start brewing and you know fast-forward we get what we have today and there's just many lineages and traditions all over the place so you would have to travel all over the island to see everything but from whatI've studied and what I've been told through a lot of elders the Buddha as we know cha-cha will do they call it or rock uber-cool or basically what what is not a subway was the first traditions of alldoing on the whole island later on in the 1800s also where comes in school the department of the south and that is one of the royal lineages that was implemented into the island but there's like I said there's
many types of Voodoo on the eye and the 21 we call it in the dominican republic popularly 21 divisions but in haiti that name is also used and people think its own oh that's only Dominican no in Haitiit's also used to anyone a CEO or you know 20 and division you know it's it or it could be a hundred and one then um you have missed the mystical numbers very but it's a name that isall throughout the island obviously guru in the Haitian side stuck on the dominican side guru was taboo when yo comes in so obviously 21 divisions becomes the the go-to name because anything that has to do with the Guruis outlawed so you know people couldn't say it but it was voodoo because it was even documented you know it was documented as a dance that people were doing or ceremony and through he or didn't want to have
it so that's a little bit of how this came to be I mean it's it's a lot of between but I really obviously I can't think of okay yeah yeah no thank you for that but he thought I'm
Kiera amplía la historia de Haití, destacando la mezcla de religiones africanas, catolicismo e ইসলাম, así como el impacto de la Revolución Haitiana. También explica cómo el vodú se organiza en distintas naciones y varía según la región.
gonna come back to you on this question of the 21 divisions in a second but I want to invite Kira to share I mean you already kind of began to miss you go to talk about how the traditionskind of came up on the island but I wonder if you care if you could share a little bit about how would you how would you define Haitian and its origins specifically on the island if you want toadd anything to what members you've already laid out for us absolutely I first want to say that I'm so grateful they may say though that you began this historical narrative talking about some people mingle with emphasizing the importanceof global people's coming over already having blended this tradition of Catholicism and African indigenous religions because that's a huge part of the story that usually gets left out and it's a really important part of the equation I think
you know it's really important to know that Islam and Christian have long lineages on the African continent you're talking about basically Egypt and currents a Ethiopia becoming Christian before Europeans become Christian in the first century you know wherethe wait till Constantinople comes in you're at 3rd century right so a very long history but that second wave of Christianity comes to the Central African kingdom of Congo and you have for 300 years 400 years this blendingof African indigenous religions Bombo indigenous religion with Catholicism and I think that that means that in some ways voodoo starts on the continent right in the sense that you have this mixing of Catholic saints of African spirits ofancestors of God Jesus as the eldest ancestor Mary as the central matronly figure right I think that's a really important part of story and we can't leave out our Muslim brothers and sisters either that's also a really important
part of the component in voodoo of Haiti because several of the most important figures in the Haitian Revolution were said to have been Muslim including one who was an enslaved person who came over from Jamaica to the islandsof East Biolabs who specifically sandal Ming at the time and was considered to be nicknamed Bookman because he was a man of the book he was a man of the Koran it's also said that self at semen whichis a Muslim name was Muslim and so you have at the time of the Revolution a majority Congo nation actually about sixty to seventy percent of enslaved Africans brought over to Haiti at the time that the Revolution wasgoing to break out in the 1770s in the 1780s and the revolution broke out for the first time in 1791 you had this incredibly powerful contingency of different nations to use the term of different ethnic groups coming together
banding together including free people of color as well as enslaved Africans who said you know we speak different languages we come from different nations we come from different regions but we're all fighting for freedom we're all fighting forour liberation and this is so interesting because the basic I'm appreciative of this term for ideals I wasn't familiar with it but it sounds so similar to the kabuto in Cuba and Glenn Brazil you have something similar inHaiti very interestingly though certainly distinctions all became gathered under the umbrella of voodoo known as vente inácio known as twenty one engines all considered to be under the umbrella of haitian vodou and so you have the combination youhave the payflow nation you have the land a nation and a nation being connected with that home a combination of course been connected with Congo you also have the sinigang nation rejuvenation right but all are going to consider
to be belonging to the tradition of order and I think you bring up such a good point in highlighting this distinctions and regional varieties because what do in the south of 80 is very different than we'll do inthe north pervading where you have you know three different sort of areas on the city navona Eve called la ku suki da Cunha's la ku bad Jew which our entire temples that are more de you know devoted tothe Yoruba tradition or one temple that's entirely devoted to the Congo and one devoted to the Dahomey and traditions of they means so that's what you have in the north that seems to resemble a little bit more SantoDomingo's vodoun but in the South of Haiti you really have all these different nations underneath the umbrella and I would say that you know moving forward you had this really interesting time between 1804 and 1860 when Haiti finally
gains its independence from France in 1804 the French kicked out they gotta go all the Catholic priests flee and Haiti is place enter an embargo so very interestingly for 55 years the only Catholic place that exists on theisland are black and of course because the majority of people in 1791 were from the continent not born in any but from the continent they were African Catholics who perhaps already had experience blending these traditions perhaps we're comingto it in this newer generation and so I think you have this period of time in the you know it's you know forced 1860 where voodoo is really becoming deeply entrenched in you know all over the islands butalso Catholicism is being blended with it and then I would say moving forward you know Haiti finally has the sort of iron gates lifted by the international community in 1860 and you have you know French Catholic priests who
are sent back to Haiti and things like that you have various periods who are being persecuted not only by he shouldn't government at times but especially by outsiders numerous interventions by the United States by France and then movingforward into the 20th century I think that what you have today is a spirit of coexistence that has been uneasy between will do in Catholicism but largely there's been a sort of a mutual understanding listen if you don'ttell us you gone to the voodoo temple you know you come to Mass in the morning we'll be ok but it's the emergence the radical evangelical Protestants in the 1970s and 1980s that have proven to really rock thefoundation of this uneasy coexistence burning temples withdrawing temples blaming the Haitian earthquake on patient would do instead of Oh a he's on the fault line you know and I'm saying and so these are the types of issues that
we're dealing with today is thinking about negotiating these different communities of Protestant Haitians Haitian Vodou ISA and Catholic Haitians and many would say to be a good would reason you have to be Catholic so that's even more complicated
Ben Besito ofrece una introducción clara a las 21 divisiones en la República Dominicana y su relación con el vodú haitiano. Describe la diversidad de linajes, templos y formas de práctica a lo largo de la isla.
Wow yeah well whoo thank you both thank you both for for making so crystal clear that we actually can't understand the presence of these traditions on the island separate from the historical and political development of themes of theisland as a whole in the two nations that share it I'm seeing some questions in the comments and and definitely from the questions that we've gotten ahead of this talk focuses actually want to understand got a little bitof an introduction into like what are these transitions and so I'm wondering if maybe you can and I know that there you know this you could probably spend the whole hour and many more of these conversations doing thisbut maybe member see that we can start with you like for someone that's just coming into this conversation and we had many dominican folks messaging us saying that they had never heard of the 21 divisions but they didn't
know that we had a tradition like this on our side of the island give us give us an introduction of like how how would you explain or lay out the basic sort of understanding of the tradition on thedominican side so i mean a lot of people obviously don't know because it's a taboo as you know as it is in haiti but even more so I think in the Dominican Republic in post in real times Ithink you know and and for people that may grow up not in a rural area it might be something alien you know so it depends on where you come from but the 21 division is really the same thingand as fast as what people say Haitian Vodou I mean people say it's a Bennigan's guru Haitian Vodou it's all the same thing the 21 divisions is just like here explain the the 21 nations concept all these ethnic
groups coming together spiritually but under of course under an umbrella and it's by divisions so each division is basically a group of spirits may be grouped up you know for a certain aspect or by nations like here explainedthe domain that I go over you BA the Congo the petrol itself you know etc so the 21 divisions is really the same thing we might have a variation in the spirits names but of course it's the samething and in the end basically it's a mix of traditions but like I said it's just not like throw everything in a pot each nation or each division is saluted in a ceremony by an order and like you'reexplained there's areas or temples that might worship one nation or one style like in the case of gonna Eve where they have sooo Bonanza Creek etc and maybe even you know there's there's parts of of Haiti and ER
that do that more so but more so all over the dr it's it's it's the umbrella the umbrella concept of all these nations grouped up together and I mean it exists there's there's a lot of people that practiceit a lot of people inherit it by by lineage of blood let's say or tradition of family but there's also initiation which people sometimes say no there's no initiation to Guru or be it in Haiti or in DominicanRepublic I've heard it on both sides no you don't get initiated there there's a variation of lineages that that maybe you don't get initiated then there's some that you do but the ones that where you do get initiatedyou get the grade of our title let's say direct ceremony to officiate ceremony etc but um you know it's it's the same thing the same concept as the the Haitian Vodou again a little bit of variation on certain
spirits butl on the island has always had a back and forth from the Haitian side to the Dominican side Dominican sides of the Haitian side because if you go to the borders of Haiti and D are all thepalpable calls orgone of rules they're gonna the worship or or serve Betty Aragon from dr and a lo and i used to PA you're gonna see altars with all these more so dominican lua but so it's something that'sbeen brewing for you for you know centuries or whatever and and it's been a back-and-forth of mixture so in the dominican republic now we have a software temples hmm so uh subways making a big entrance into the dominicanrepublic but of course the the traditional 21 division style holds more rain and but you're gonna find a lot of influence in the dominican republic obviously there's a lot of haitian people that are moving or have been living
in the dominican republic so all that influence comes in so you have Lua that are more so Dominican and of course the rest of the Pantheon from Haiti or what people consider to be Haitian so I think thatin a way the dominican side has a little bit more variation than Haiti but doback due to the whole haiti haitian influx you know what I mean where I mean he he is still super diverse because it's likeyou said if you go to the north and even if you go more north soak up ICN that's another whole world of booze so it's like everywhere you go there's a different type of lineage or who that's gonna
La conversación se centra en los rangos y títulos dentro de ambas tradiciones, incluyendo bokó, mambo, papa bokó y otros roles sacerdotales. Kiera explica también las etapas de iniciación y el sentido ritual de convertirse en servidor de los espíritus.
be shocking to the eye if you travel the island can I ask a follow-up question on that been besito I am this is so helpful for me I feel like I'm learning so much I mean the different rolesand the different titles that one can acquire either in the twenty ones of visions lineage or in the ISO cui lineage because I'm really curious I remember when he first introduced yourself and said that you are palpable coolthat's a word that we have in Haiti and in voodoo but it has a bit of a different meaning on our side so I'd love to hear about the titles and then of course I'm happy to share mymy understanding and Haitian vocal is a term that has a lot of things because obviously the books have termed vocal to be them the Maleficent priest or whatever and that's not it I mean it's partially but again it's
regional everywhere you're going in Haiti boku has a different term both whole is just a priest obviously it comes from Africa it's the ephah priest of the voting tradition of of the dhamma kingdom in that area so thebabalao is is more for the the nigerian or nago term you know the Yoruba term we're all book or no is the Alpha priest that obviously came to our island to Ischia and it of course we didn't welost the ephah Oracle but the physical of the priest was still there so bow is the high the high grade priest in the 21 divisions when you get we say baptized or our initiation is about them or aboutdiesel so when you're baptized do you know you're just a servant still have to work your way up there was seven year apprenticeship and passed tests then when you're you an or a mumble also that's the female term
obviously just like in Mahaney when you pass all these tests then you if you initiate people then you're a mama or Papa Boko because you have initiated others so that's the highest grade anybody can be a servant andlike just like in Haiti and the Dominican Republic no initiation needed there's people that are horses of the law or Bluehost that's a term popular in the Dominican Republic you know all these guys a Brujo let's go tothe blue ball whenever to get a consultation and a lot of the most accessible rules have no initiation in the Dominican Republic but is a or the mama mumble is the highest grade in most of the Dominican systemsand also in some of the Haitian lineages boku is used instead of own gun mmm poco and mumbo also the term gun gun mm-hmm another one so I'm a palpable Ganga and but also the book all again going
back to to regional differences is the priests of Makkah yeah and actually I'm I'm also initiated into that I'm supposed to talk much about but you know so it applies to both terms so you know it its regionaleven in Hayden but a lot of people the books have made the book all seem like the before is an uninitiated person that just does a malevolent magic I mean of course you're a mob boss of whether youcan go ahead on and on that one yeah oh thank you Miss utopia would you share about what it what what the titles are in your tradition sure so I'll state very briefly in terms of kind of ayou know one minute 101 of what is Haitian Vodou we have very much like these African religions a highest God a Creator God his name is bond Jude which literally means good God he's kind of considered the the
architect of the universe and I just slipped and said he but actually and you know a lot of African languages like homeboy like Yoruba like Manik on you don't have a gender necessarily associated with God God is consideredto be neutral so wonder for us is our highest God then we have our guau guau are the intermediary spirit whom you would pray to so you have a Quay master the Seas captain of the Seas you havegot all the fierce woman warrior who's the patroness of lesbians and of queer people and also considered to be the archetypal mother dark-skinned mother so you have all these different intermediary spirits then you have this all set whoare the ancestors and then you have humans of course who play an important role in all of this you know cosmic pantheon and then with regards to the titles I would say that you have um at probably four
different ways of identifying different ranks within the tradition so you can start with a lobby theft which is literally a washing of the head and it's our sort of about them it's our sort of baptism of a veryvery early entry you can serve the spirits without ever being in the ship just as my bicycle said in Haiti you have no obligation to be initiated but if you would like to to dip your toe in ifyou will you can receive a Nabi that and that positions a particular spirit was claimed you and kind of seats them in your head if you will crowns them in your head so that they can you know delivermessages to you more clearly so that you have this kind of spiritual eye that's been awakened so you can receive messages and dreams more clearly so you're met that might be identified for you during your lobbied debt if
you decide to go on and some people skip now eight that entirely and go straight to console console is in some ways a translation would be a trial by fire it is the coucher experience being initiated for tip7 to 9 days spending on the house depending on the region this is more typical of what I'm talking about in the south and you would be initiated as an when you come out and that's a full wordfrom Dahomey from they mean you would be an unci somebody who serves the spirits literally the term that a lot of Haitians use is you know today people will say I'm a voodoo Mesa but historically people would usethe term savvy thing I am one who serves the spirits just as been basically was saying servant of the spirits so that's the first level you've passed a trial by fire you've committed yourself formally you're met that has
been revealed to you the master of your head the spirit who walks with you most closely has been revealed to you then after that you can experience being initiated at the priest or priestess level so you can becomea soup when a mambo soup when meeting a priestess literally like on the point doesn't translate very easily or an angle which is a priest and that means that you are trained in the language of the ritual rattleare asked soul which is considered to be the implement of the gods a way of calling them in and also being able to send them away when it's time to close that portal but you do not own yourwhen you are su point when you are that first level of priest or priestess you are considered to be somebody who can conduct ceremonies but it's at the highest level which is a so we which memory Seto mentioned
that you are considered to be a high priest or priestess I am a Mambo a soapUI a High Priestess of the tradition and a baby because I've initiated more recently and you're always continuing the journey of learning youknow but the high priest or priestess is able they own the rustle they own the ritual rattle which means that in theory they could start their own temple they could start their own for their own baby steel theycould initiate others and you know after initiation you go through a period of 40 days where you have certain prohibitions that keep you stronger because it's considered that you come out of the womb when you come out ofthat inner temple you come out of the jail it's considered that you are a baby starting life anew and so you have to sort of reset the clock and you have to begin the world gingerly stepping carefully you
know paying extra attention to people's energetic fields and things like that as you begin to learn and sort of commit yourself to serving the spirits
Se responde a preguntas sobre cómo se manifiestan los lwa cuando montan a una persona. Ambos invitados explican que el montaje puede variar por región, linaje y espíritu, aunque mantiene patrones reconocibles en ambas tradiciones.
mm thank you Kira a question that I'm seeing in the textbox right now I mean there are many questions if you want to take a look through but one of them is a question regarding the law we've hearda little bit about the difference in length in the terminology or the names that they might receive on both sides of the island but do they the question is do they have similar characteristics and specifically when they aremounting when folks are in gate where they you know relating with the spirits in that way they show up similarly on both sides of the islandokay so I guess I'll answer a little bit of that in Dominican Republic for the foremost of the area the law are gonna be consistent in the way the amount obviously each more mounts differently some are violent someare more easy depending on the nature of the law again we call them misterioso law whatever so in it depends on the horse really also there's a lot of there can be different horses or people that mount one
certain law and they might mount that law differently but overall it it's the same pattern it should be consistent with the colors they use the offerings they they take the foods maybe a way they talk or act againdepending on the nature in in Haiti there are differences regionally to mounting law if you go to an ossuary ritual they're gonna they're gonna mount one way but if you go to places like Subin ants or or gonnaheave they're gonna mount totally different and it's gonna be kind of alien if you're from the capital of Haiti and follow us of where traditions or you know any tradition there even family style and go to Ghana IIor the north and see the way they mount there you're gonna be like wait a minute this is totally different if you go more so north again a little bit different so it's in Haiti it becomes a little
bit regional with the mounting I think in in in Dominican Republic it's a it's a little bit more uniform overall but again it depends on the on the horse on the person that knows some people are gonna mounttotally violent and the reason that they mount might mount violent is because they're not initiated and they should be initiated yeah and this goes for like the whole island because it's a concept that that is very alive thereI mean people that mount should be the ones that are really initiated into something and and and touching on on what you said here in the Dominican Republic traditions we also have the part where you guys say lavatip but we say here at Franco become yourself so that kind of like same thing there's also a thing called applause army anthem which is like an appeasement which is more for people that are not ready for the
full initiation or also for people that get like like I was saying those violent sessions and to appease the law and kind of leave them alone and then of course the the baptism which is the the top yeahand I north of Haiti that's basically the same format they use for the most part mmm or it sucked a little bit on them on the mounting as sure this is yeah I think I really I really agreewith you that the regional variety shows so much about the diversity with regards to voodoo on the Haiti side one thing that I wanted to go back to you mentioned Ganga and that's so interesting because way in thesouthwest of Haiti there are people who use the term Ganga and just as you were mentioning volcko in hating unfortunately it's in many ways it's had a negative connotation just as you said with people saying oh it's a
malefactor or you know as somebody who's trying to cause harm to others but another participating book or just means you're a priest you're initiated or you're not formally initiated and you may come from a lineage that that doesn'trequire like initiating because you have inherited the spirits through your family that's more typical in the rural areas it's more typical in the urban areas that you have a nice old way line where you formally initiate but theGanga quite likely comes from the key como term Wanda which means priests in central Africa specifically in regions that speak Congo I think regarding mountings is very interesting I would say that typically you do see a lot ofsimilarities with regards to the house certain spirits will come there a spirit like scene beam when you mention micaiah for us we have a scene be Makai Yahoo is again a Congo spirit a spirit of cool rivers of
waters of rain of magic and of healing Cindy can come and often because he/she you know gender-fluid seen be is associated with water often they'll want to you know douse themselves in water or drink water or kind ofbathe in a pool of water and that's something that we will see very consistently but one thing that I'll note that's very interesting about mounting is it also depends on I'll say see two things it depends on regionit depends on the road or the manifestation of that particular spirit so for instance my house is based in Jacmel in the south it's a seaside city so you can imagine that I'm way captain of the Seas andlastly then the queen of you know mermaids is a are two spirits who play a very important role they might not come to ceremony quite as often in the mountainside village of no body where I also do work
because there it's landlocked right but there you might have more attention to spirits like you know lexing be the river because the rivers are coursing through the mountains right so you might have spirits playing more of a rolein certain areas being more prominent or if as mesito noted you have a particular lineage in the family like you for your family honor Dogu if your family honor ducked off your family honored Phyllida and you have thatlegacy that lineage Ogawa you may have families that pass that down to the next several generations and so somebody is much more likely to have I got woo being one of their closest spirits maybe even their met thatif they their family served that spirit and then the last thing I'll say is you know each spirit for us each to offer us in in voodoo in Haiti has many different roads you know there's a whoosh is
bad I agree there's no Panama there's no Busan Shack there's no goo and there's so many right you same thing with the else really is same thing with the dam Bhalla and so with this in mind oh booba degree comes differently than Augustine shock or goofy lie or boo BA degree the oh who is the spirit for us of iron of war of a sort of commanding general but also a soldier on the front battlelines and so you have o husain chap who comes a little bit more like the diplomat a little bit more like the general who comes fierce but as somebody who you know who carries a certain degree of presencethat indicates that maybe they're not the one on the very first line of the battlefields you know whereas about ugly for instance may come weeping about ugly may come leaping from the spoils of war from the pain that
they experience from being disappointed also who is the sort of justice you know they may be disappointed with humans that have sort of erred that have you know crossed lines that they shouldn't have crossed and so they weepyou know with a certain sadness and even the same spirit with different manifestations can come in ceremony can mount a particular person differently and as many sicko said people who come quite violently or spirits who come quite violentlyto certain people it may be because they need to be initiated it could be because they need to do some spiritual work and the spirit is indicating you yourself you have work to do we have unfinished business maybeyou all haven't been taking care of your ancestors the way you're supposed to take care of the spirits way you're supposed to and we need to address that mmm thank you both for that thank you both I see
Ben Besito describe los rituales de ancestros en la República Dominicana, incluyendo ofrendas y ceremonias periódicas. Subraya que los ancestros son esenciales, aunque en su tradición se les apacigua más de lo que se depende de ellos.
some speaking of ancestors there's a couple of questions that have come into the the comments about the role of ancestors in both of these traditions wondering if you can speak a little bit to thatokay well uh ancestors are super important in Moodle people tend to leave them out and focus on the lulav so much and for you know forget about this but ancestors are the main connection because like I said andwe keep saying this is a tradition that for us from the you know from the island or you know people of African descent we inherit this so it comes in our blood so obviously we have to look backon the ancestors the ancestors uh I'll touch on my side and that here a touch on the acid web part of the ancestral worship or ceremonies in the Dominican Republic there's there's rituals that are done mostly in in
rural communities in the city these things have been lost it's kind of like part of a boo the voodoo tradition but a little bit of a part so there's pheromone is called bank vault or levantamiento which are syrupcelebrated maybe yearly when a person dies there's a cowboy angle which is a year in the year ritual and there's a lot of things that go on there's a music and prayer a whole bunch of things depending onthe region then there's a set of five I think it's a 3 5 or 7 year ceremony again and then this can continue every year depending on the wishes of the ancestor that died or the family tradition inmy family tradition we do a yearly Benko for all the ancestors and obviously if they were initiated into the tradition then you have to do these things because again everything is in is is based on the ancestors and
without them we don't have anything so every time we we open up ceremonies or there's a certain time of the year we have to to feed them and there's big ceremonies done both in the Dominican Republic in Haitithis can be a family tradition and a feeding is done every year for the ancestors so you know we have to feed them and do ceremonies to them so they can be calm and leave us alone because wehave in comparison to other tradition is that we have them there and we appease them but we don't rely on them much because we rely on the law but they do come in dreams but we don't have themas the law there's a there's a saying that that our announcers an ancestor of mine used to say that I that was passed down and it was a lo Muertos a donkey 8o e lo lo hacen para hard
that you leave them alone but you obviously appease them and the law are to work hmm I'll pass it over to you here
Kiera explica las prácticas haitianas de llamar a los muertos y el vínculo con el mundo subacuático de los ancestros. También presenta a los ghedes como espíritus de muerte, vida y sexualidad, y su importancia en las ceremonias de noviembre.
all right fascinating well I'll send me that it sounds like we have a tradition that's very similar so what you've described a message though we call it let's see the mona blue literally to recall to bring back thedead from underneath the water for us it's understood that athlete's Guinea is either an underwater realm or around beneath the sea where the ancestors and the spirits reside as well as those not yet born so we believe alsoin reincarnation it's fascinating because it's not simply a South Asian tradition in Hinduism and Buddhism but it's also something that we have in African religions and African derived traditions of the Diaspora so athlete Guinea is considered to beat once a sort of mythic spiritual realm and also a kind of mythic Africa it's understood that oh you know come see numb well short see we have got fooled nangi mia and you know my spirit is going
to return sagina which at once means Africa where the ancestors all reside but it also means athlete unit is this underwater realm where the spirits reside so when you call back the spirits with lithium will not grow it'sa tradition that typically is supposed to be done a year and a day after somebody has died when you bring them back and they may be cold because they're coming from underneath the water and so you need tofeed them you need to care for them you need to tell them I'm gonna place you here on the altar so that your close so that I can always reach you so that whenever you need me I'm hereto be able to feed you to be able to serve you to care for you and that spirit that ancestral for should be you know shared with the next generation and then we have the giddy spirits I saw
that there was a question about the Giddy's and of course when inappropriate how inappropriate weights that you know start wrapping up they did a family they get in a show for us are the spirits of the Dead andthey come from the Gadhafi nation of ancient da who making them they were the indigenous people of a particular area and a boom a banging who were made to be ritual gravediggers who cared for the dead there sowe think this is how he came to Haiti d-day has a sort of king and a queen if you will bowel sounds E is considered to be the king of the gig and his wife is mama blue sheetsassociated with Saint Brigid the the Irish Catholic saint actually and you know it's often you know something that people are afraid of oh oh did it uh but in fact they're spirits of life death and sexuality because it's
important to understand that if we you know are explaining that we believe in reincarnation then these things are linked remember all the way at the beginning of our conversation we talked about initiation happens at multiple stages in ourlives and even death in a lot of our Africana traditions can be seen as an initiation into ancestry and so these godis spirits are playful they can be lewd they make jokes and they they they make you uncomfortableand they may come kiss you and they dance bond that and they you know play with these ideas and experiences of the erotic as being connected to life and death and this is a ceremony that we you knowtake very very seriously usually in the beginning of November it coincides with the Catholic day of the Saints via the sweat dos in Mexico is a sort of parallel tradition of honoring the ancestors they differ us faded for
us as an opportunity to honor the the nation of the gay day spirits and also to honor our ancestors to ask for their blessings to recall their names to think about their importance in our everyday lives because asmen besito said they're the reason why we're here so to forget them is to lose everything that we have to forget where we come from this is to forget everything that we have
Se discute cómo el vodú y las tradiciones afines influyen en la cultura popular, el lenguaje, la música, la comida y el carnaval. También se destaca la sanación como una vía cotidiana por la que muchas personas vuelven a estas prácticas.
through this question um you know I'm gonna kind of begin to come into the last couple questions for this you know this again like I said part one of our conversation here but one of the other questions thatcame up was the one that folks were asking what elements of the Voodoo tradition have become a part of the culture on general society that we may not even recognize as much if there's anything like that that youcan speak to either one of you that would be in the Dominican Republic a lot of things that people might not realize I mean everything we do is is its is basically guru and people don't even the musicyou know the music the food just everything I think everything but a big thing that I will say is huge on both sides of the island and it's coming up right now is gaga and that's become a staple
on the dominican republic obviously comes from a me but it's it's become Dominican as well and it's celebrated now and Holy Week on both sides and and it's something that that I think it's super huge and it is
I would say that for thinking about the importance of popular culture and the way that voodoo influences popular culture I really agree I think it's it's such a pervasive part of people's everyday lives and ways that they don'teven know so for instance you know grandmother like abuela or like lumpin speaks to you in like parables and riddles and it's like the like literal translation would be like well you know the duck got to learn tofly before it can swim with the feathers and you're like what maybe what we call long ash and it literally translates to language but it means proverbs riddles wisdom wrapped up in folds and creases of something that youkind of have to tease apart and in part that comes with like deep knowledge but a lot of that longer comes from boo boo a lot of those sort of riddles and parables and ways of speaking kind of
tongue-in-cheek saying something without making somebody realize what you're saying a lot of that comes from having a coated ritual language of the gods of the spirits so that's one thing carnival everybody knows the Caribbean Carnival Ride that's youjust been basically said the music is enormous in Haiti of course we have Copa but we also have that loud music which for us is enormous all carnival season basically from Christmas onwards until Easter it's just that youhear on the radio and you know carnival it comes from European Catholic parade traditions it also comes from African masquerade traditions the idea to put on a mask is not just oh I'm not myself in the West Africanmasquerade tradition it is I am a spirit it is I am able to channel spirits right and so you have representations of figures sometimes as very clear as Catholic saints but sometimes spirits that sort of play in between
those different identities and so you have carnival traditions what else the food certain foods are associated with the spirits themselves like choc which I love which is so delicious it's like kind of like our Sun God show alittle bit it's a little bit different but there is this ritual tradition of feeding people this soup on fit guy who's the spirit of Agriculture and the harvest and farming and commerce and money and you honor him byfeeding him checkout which is considered to be a food of the peasants you know considered to be a food of the rural poor but it's wildly popular everybody loves it cos it's delicious and it's definitely considered to bea food that you use to honor the spirits in part you know so I would say that there's a number different ways that the popular culture has been in 502 and the last thing I'll say about that is
I study healing traditions because I think that it's such a wonderful way to gain access to what people really feel at the end of the day because you might say you're Catholic you might say you're seventh-day adventists youmight say you're put this song in functional you know evangelist and then you get sick when your mama gets sick mmm because ill all of us you go knock on the Mambo's door you go knock on the hunginsdoor because you know at the end of the day if this Western medicine isn't working then you need to find a solution and you'll do whatever it takes and so I think that actually healing is a huge waythat you see people still saying well I don't believe in the spirits I don't believe in raw I don't do that stuff but when it comes down to it if their baby is sick if their mother is ill
they themselves are ill that's an avenue that people will often explore and pursue
Los invitados aconsejan a jóvenes haitianos y dominicanos sobre cómo acercarse de forma responsable a estas tradiciones. Recomiendan buscar guías legítimos, investigar con cuidado y no temer a prácticas que han sido demonizadas.
hmm Wow well I'm gonna introduce just ask this last question as we begin to wrap up um so a lot of questions came in to us and have continued with from folks who I feel like they've been cutoff from these traditions younger folks who are saying like how can we you know how can we find our way back to them if we've been if we haven't been taught this or we got cut off from ourtraditions at some point it's all the way in for each of you to speak to either young Haitians and young Dominicans that are asking this question what would you say to them well it's important to find a personif you're in Dominican Republic or Haiti I think you should you should find a priest or a person that that is well known in a certain community that is considered legit because obviously there's a lot of charlatan a
charlatan this is not only for who it's in every tradition and everywhere in the world so you have to find somebody that's that is it has good you know good recommendations that's legit now be it here or onthe island and you start by maybe getting a reading if you're not from the culture itself for somebody that's not from the culture I would say get reading with that person if you feel that person is very goodand and legit in every way then you follow up with them but the other for the people that are not of the culture the reading is the initial point especially like here in the United States that's how Ibasically start with everybody that comes looking for this tradition is that when you're reading and then from there we take it because well it's different when you grow up in it you're surrounded and immersed by it and and
here you know you have to start somewhere
Oh
you're not interrupt you but I'm getting a lot of comments that folks can't see or hear you can you don't just take a quick look at your at your audio and see if it's working because I really wantfolks to be able to get this information that you're oh it seems like you might be back now can folks comment if you can see and hear Kyra now I can't see her now
hmm
Kyra are you still with us
bimba seat are you with us yes okay can folks here been besito on the live yes okay I think we might have to try to bring Kyra back on in a minute and if we can't get her backcuz we are starting to wrap up we will make sure to share the resources that she was just sharing with us on the comment thread um once we wrap up but Missy was there anything else that you wantedto add as far as this particular piece well I think that for anybody that's in search or has some type of calling I know everybody I mean there's a lot of people now interested in and getting back totheir truth you know like I was saying you have to do some research don't just go to anybody don't just show up to a Botanica I know a lot of people go to vote on e cos as a
as a place you know of seeking or whatever but I think that a well Danica might be a source to to ask ask for a person but I think now in the age of social media it's easier tofind priests again you have to study the person and make sure the are legit because there's a billion people out there saying they're priests of this or that and the other and they're really not there's just you knowout to to make a buck so be diligent in researching the purse and before you before you make any move with that person but the readings I think is a good initial point with a priest that is recognizedby the community and do you know there's a lot of material out there like here I was saying do research online but don't take everything you see online literal also because there's a lot of misinformation on the Internet
so if it's you know you have to investigate everything you you see don't take everything online literal either so you know that it's it's a tricky situation but you know it's a little bit easier now with social mediaobviously you can find anything or anybody and and I think if you feel a calling make the move because that's the ancestors letting you know that you have to go back to these traditions don't be afraid of themthey've been demonized but obviously now we know that that's not the case and everybody's realizing it and people are waking up to the reality of what our culture is especially in the Dominican Republic that we're having a lotof good movements or these traditions so I'm happy to see that going on Dominican Republic yeah yeah well thank you Ben besito that's that's like the perfect way to close this live conversation right now thinking about you know
all the different ways that these traditions have been demonized and hidden and this is a you know part of arts
you