Transcript
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The speaker introduces his vision that blockchain and zero-knowledge technology are rebuilding the global economic rails. He explains why adoption is slow and how privacy, scale, and low costs are now becoming viable.
This is the future.And most people just don't realize that.They probably heard of these very volatile assets like Bitcoin, and they don't realize that the infrastructure for the global economy is being rebuilt as we speak.
Who are you?
Today, I'm two-time co-founder, first of Zcash, then of Dark Matter and StarkNet.And I'm also an inventor of some of the ZK that underlies what all of the industry is using today for privacy and scale.
Can you explain your second project, StarkNet, to Uber driver?
Zcash is very much like Bitcoin.It's like a store of value.It's like gold, but with privacy.Now, StarkNet already today is like what Ethereum is for Bitcoin, StarkNet is for Zcash.It gives you programmable private money with good UX.So, you can swap things, you can lend, you can borrow, you can get exposure to the S&P 500 and stuff like that with a very good UX and with privacy.
What's the one thing that people should remember from today's conversation?
I hope they remember my vision, which is that through futuristic technology, which is post-quantum secure, solves scalability and privacy, we can make economic world more fair and better for each and every one of your listeners.I just want decentralization, blockchain, the use of good technology that empowers individuals.I want that to win.
Eli, you spent years working on problems that most of the crypto industry didn't realize exist existed yet.You saw Bitcoin scaling problem in 2013.You helped invent the technology behind Zcash, and you worked on cryptography designed to resist quantum computer long before this became a mainstream concern.What do you understand about the future of money that most people in crypto still don't understand today?
That Well, the number one thing I think people don't understand is that this will be the main way these rails that we've all built that include things like ZK, zero knowledge, and include blockchains, and include a lot ofnew asset classes.This is the way that both humans and and agents are going to be transacting and doing business in the future.This is the future.And most people just don't realize that.They probably heard of these very volatile assets like Bitcoin.Um and they don't realize that the infrastructure for the global economy is being rebuilt as we speak.
Why do you think that after what is it, 17 years now that Bitcoin was created, why do you think that after almost two decades most people still under don't understand that?
Oh, it's very simple.Money and the economic rails are just things that take a very long time to get adoption.So, let me give a few examples.Uh paper cash took several centuries to be adopted first in first in China, and then several centuries to be adopted when it came to Europe, right?Um things like credit took centuries to deal with.Um if you think about closer to our times, things like credit cards took decades to get adopted.And even things like ATMs um took many years for people to like this automatic telling machine, which is actually very simple, took again decades for people to get it adapted to.So, it's not surprising that the new rails are taking time.And then I'll add to that that there are a bunch of technological challenges that we've been solving that that early on didn't exist, things like, you know, privacy and scale and low costs that by now are solved.
So, combination of just it takes a long time and some technology that we had to build.
He describes his background as a mathematician and how early work on zero-knowledge proofs led him to Bitcoin. A conference talk and developer interest convinced him the technology had real-world importance.
Who are you?
I ask myself that question time and again.So, I used to answer I'm a mathematician, a researcher.I was a full-time professor doing theoretical computer science back in the day when humans could still do math.Um I'm still shocked.You know, I partly think of myself as a mathematician and I'm still shocked that my colleagues are basically, you know, our job as as pushing the frontiers of math has ended because machines are doing it better.Uh today I'm a two-time co-founder, first of Zcash, then of uh StarkWare, um and StarkNet.And I'm also a an inventor of some of the ZK that underlies what all of the industry is using today for privacy and scale.
There is there's a common pattern among my amongst my guests.They have something that happened in their life that gave them a chip on the shoulder.What happened in your life that can ex- help explain your fire in the belly and your pretty incredible achievements today?
I think there's a lot that explains that.Probably it starts in early childhood and, you know, feeling that that uh well, I you know, a lot of parental love, but also with it a lot of like sort of responsibility on my shoulders to uh outperform.Um but closer uh to what I'm doing today in my career, so I was implementing these things called zero-knowledge proofs with no real good end use for them until Bitcoin discovered me.I came to this conference and I realized there, and I was the first to realize it, that that ZK, that the math that I was implementing in my lab solves two very burning problems for Bitcoin, uh privacy andscale, and that you know, I saw something that no one else saw and and it was very clear to me that this is the future and that I can help lead and shape it.
So, I just followed that path and you know, I've been at it ever since.
You said Bitcoin found me.Can you elaborate?How did you get so fascinated by the world of Bitcoin, blockchain, and cryptocurrencies?
So, I'll take you back to 2013.Um I was a full-time professor and uh from time to time people came to me and said, "Oh, you know, you you know computers.What do you think about Bitcoin?"And I never looked into it.So, I was, you know, sadly, I mean, I wish I had.Uh so, like in 2011, 2012, random people asked me about it, but it like sat at the back of my mind.I never bothered to look deeper into it.But then in 2013, I was giving academic talks about the work of implementing what later on became uh ZK-Starks and and SNARKs.And uh I was giving them to professors in academic places, and I I was implementing these things, and I innovated on them a lot.I was looking to explain what they're good for, and I couldn't come up with very good explanations or examples.
But one thing that I used there was like this thing called solving the Bitcoin millionaire problem.So, how can someone prove to you that they have a million Bitcoin without exposing, you know, their wallets uh and you being able to track them.And I said, "Well, my technology can help solve that."And this led me So, I heard about a Bitcoin conference happening close by.It was in San Jose, and I was giving lectures at Stanford and Berkeley.So, I said, "I'll try to speak there."I reached out, and Gavin Andresen and Greg Maxwell, some of the old OGs of Bitcoin, they said, "Yeah, sure, come over."I gave a talk to a half-empty uh hall, but a few of the core developers were there, and they came afterwards and said, "Okay, where's the code?"And that was the first time that anyone, let alone a developer, asked for the code.
And I asked them why, and they started giving me all kinds of examples.So, that was the moment that I realized so, Bitcoin developers, they coming up to me and saying, "Where's the code, and we need it."sort of helped me realize that I have something that is interesting.So, that's what happened.
How do you get to building a technology like ZK before even finding a problem to solve, right?You said, "Hey, I was building this thing.I knew it was kind of useful, but I didn't know for what."How How does your brain work so you you say, "I'm going to build on that thing because I feel like it's useful, even though I can't really explain what it is useful for yet."
This is what all scientists do, right?I think that scientists a good way to think about them is like these explorers of some unknown land.And you know, when Columbus set sail to go west, he had one thought in mind, but he found something else.And this happens time and again when you explore thing or when Alexander Fleming, you know, saw um that is in his Petri dish, uh you know, the bacteria died because of of some fungi.Sort of it set him on a path.So, I was obviously exploring and I didn't know what would come out of it, but I did know that this is a very interesting question like implementing some of this really, really deep math that by now we've standardizedand productized and it's sort of available to everyone to use, but back in the day, this was you know, very, very complex math that that needed to be solved.
And that's That's what we did.So, that was the challenge.And yeah, I was happy to do it without knowing exactly who's going to use use it and for what.
The discussion turns to Bitcoin’s public ledger and the limits that creates for financial freedom. He explains how this led to the ZeroCash paper, the creation of Zcash, and why privacy took years to gain wider recognition.
Bitcoin is often described as anonymous, but every obviously we know every transaction can be traced on the a public ledger.What happens to freedom when every financial transaction becomes permanently visible?
Yeah, it it is severely limited.It's like uh suppose that you would tweet every time you make a purchase.Um you know, here's my credit card number.Here's uh what I bought.Obviously, this would damage our financial freedom and uh put us more in the hands of large data centers and corporations and governments that could track us.And this is exactly the situation with with Bitcoin.Um the infrastructure itself suffers from the ability of uh large parties to track each and every transaction.And governments do this.Uh companies like Chainalysis do this.So, it has some good use cases, right?You could track down the bad guys' money.That's that's okay.But uh along the way you're tracking everyone.So, if you want to know the consuming habits of every person who's using Bitcoin or intends to use Bitcoin for daily payments, uh that's not so good.
So, that's a problem.
How How do you go from this first Bitcoin conference where you're like, "Actually, I'm going to go and talk about what I'm doing in my research."And then these Bitcoiners OGs, they just come and this actually is really useful.How do you go from that to say, "I'm going to help build Zcash, which is kind of private Bitcoin."
So, the next step was uh writing uh an academic paper.So, uh along with several other very smart uh scientists, we wrote a paper titled ZeroCash: Bringing Privacy to Bitcoin because we envisioned it as something that Bitcoin should adopt through something like a soft fork or a hard fork.Obviously, I mean, in hindsight, it was a little bit um how do you say?Uh too optimistic.I I didn't know the politics of Bitcoin.Um but but like my hope still is that that Bitcoin will adopt things like ZK-STARKs.Um maybe this post-quantum security thing will push them into it.Anyways, we wrote an academic paper.And then what happened?So, this was about 2014.What happened was that uh several different um developers reached out and said, "Hey, let's let's build this thing."And uh one of them really stood out.A very strong team with a cyberpunk uh background and strong credentials.
Uh they were called least authority led by Zooko.So I did a little bit of due diligence.We co-founded company behind uh Zcash and you know handed it over to the developers to build the beautiful new system that is Zcash today.
That was 10 years ago?
That was yeah, about 10 years ago.We partnered around 2014 I think and then it took about 2 years till the very end of 2015 for the amazing engineering team led by Zooko to productize and take the academic code and make it into a systemthat was launched at the very end of 2015.
How much are you still involved with we involved with Zcash today?
No formal involvement at all.And like so I'm not on any payroll.I you know I don't have any holdings in anything related to to companies you know underlying uh Zcash.But I am very very supportive of and friendly with uh I would like to say every party that has is interested in in Zcash.So I'm very friendly with Zcash folks.I have a lot of admiration for the Zcash Foundation for you know Zcash Labs, for miners and so on.And and because I'm one of the founding scientists of Zcash um they also I hope view me as a friend and sometimes we talk and break bread together.
Why do you think it took 10 years for people to start realizing hey this privacy stuff matters because crypto and blockchain and Bitcoin are amazing things and amazing technologies and a revolution but if everything is public out therethat might not be the best solution that exists.Why 10 years?
Well part of it is what we started with, right?Just adopting technology takes time especially if something so important as a store value as money.But then there were there are a few other contributing factors.I think one of them is the ossification of Bitcoin, which leads So, some people obviously think it's the most beautiful and greatest thing ever that like Bitcoin is basically shutting down any chance for any soft fork and likeno updates and and nothing.And some people are like really celebrating this.But but I think that the larger investor community doesn't like that.And I think so people are asking, okay, is this really going to be digital gold forever?Like do is this the the way digital gold should should look in terms of ossification?And like no changes.Um especially when there are things like, you know, quantum threats.
And there are some things that need fixing like scale and privacy and programmability.And Bitcoin's like, no, no, no.So, one is the opportunity that I think is arising or arose.The second thing is that there is actually a good set of products that allow you to just access Bitcoin.Things like the Zonal wallet, the visor wallet, the ability to bridge over through near intents and other ways.That's the second thing.So, there's like a good product that makes it more available.In the early days it was very hard to transact with Bitcoin, especially if it was the shielded transaction.And then the third aspect is just the regulatory landscape that today is more open.You know, in the early days I remember when we launched Zcash, like the next day I remember that the like the Italian parliament was talking about passing a law that bans, you know, Zcash.
And like so, it was very hard to get Zcash listed on exchanges and then to move in and out of the fiat banking system.So, those are the reasons, right?Bitcoin is like uh ossifying.There's a good set of products and the regulatory landscape.All of these combined.
I think about crypto in a pretty simple way.I think about Bitcoin that made money scarce and independent.Ethereum made money programmable.And Zcash made scarce money private.
He presents StarkNet as the next step: programmable, private, and post-quantum-secure money. The conversation covers STARKs, why they are stronger than SNARKs, and how StarkNet aims to combine privacy, scalability, and agility.
Is the next step a blockchain that combines all three, programmability, privacy, and security against quantum computer?
I think so and I think you know, I have a candidate that is my second project, which is StarkNet.Yes.So, yes, I think money store value should have privacy.It should have some connection to programmability because we want to do stuff with money like invest, borrow, lend, uh you know, swap against other assets.We want to do it in a in a simple way with privacy, with good UX.And obviously, we need agility, cryptographic agility, which means, you know, ability to easily upgrade, especially in our days of quantum threats and threats from super intelligence.And I think all of these things are uh what we're aspiring with in StarkNet.
Can you explain your second project, StarkNet, to your Uber driver?
So, I'll go with what you said.I I I really relate to it.So, a Bitcoin is digital gold.It's this store of value, but there's also like a programmable version of Bitcoin, which is Ethereum, and it's uh it lets you transact and do all kinds of things like, you know, uh buy stocks, right?If you're an Uber driver, maybe you want to buy uh you know, uh exposure to the S&P 500 or exposure to gold.You cannot do this on Bitcoin, right?But you can do this on Ethereum.Now, none of these both of these systems don't have privacy.They don't have post-quantum security.So, they're sort of threatened by quantum computers and they don't have privacy.Okay, Zcash is very much like Bitcoin.It's like a store of value.It's like gold, but with privacy.Now, StarkNet already today is like the what Ethereum is for Bitcoin, StarkNet is for Zcash.
It gives you programmable private money with good UX.So, you can swap things, you can lend, you can borrow, you can get exposure to uh the S&P 500 and stuff like that with a very good uh UX and with privacy.
Let's say I own Bitcoin today, which I do own Bitcoin, and plan to hold it for the next 20 years, which I plan to to as well.
There's a possibility that quantum computers eventually break the cryptography protecting my assets.Is my Bitcoin actually safe for the next 20 years?
I I don't know.I mean, this is actually it's really up to I mean, there are several unknowns here, but I wouldn't say it's uh 100% safe.Okay?And I would say this, the more people are worried about its safety because of quantum computers, because of the ossification and like no change, no soft forks, no updates attitude of some of the leaders of Bitcoin, I thinkthe more of a more the more unsafe it is.So, what I mean is um first of all, we don't know if a quantum computer will emerge and when, but I am deeply concerned about Bitcoin sort of push against change and against updating and upgrading.It's moving way too slow and basically calling folks like me and others, "Oh, these are just fudsters and they're just alarmists."and so on.And I think that's a very, very dangerous thing for Bitcoin.
The right stance, the right attitude should be there's a problem.We have to acknowledge it.We have to embrace uh basically changes that will save us from this thing.So, right now I cannot say I mean, sadly, even though, you know, Bitcoin is my first love, I cannot say with certainty that your Bitcoin like I can say with certainty, right?If you have gold, your gold is probably going to as a safe bet that it will stay gold and it will will be scarce and valuable uh 20 years ahead.I don't have the same level of certainty with respect to Bitcoin, unfortunately, at this point.
There's something called STARKs at the center of StarkNet.Explain STARKs to me like I'm a 12-year-old.
STARKs allow you to trust anyone with a computation, even if it's Darth Vader.So, let's unpack that.Suppose that you wanted someone to process a day of transactions of Bitcoin and just report to you the state, you know, what is the state?Like who owns how much Bitcoin?Well, if it's Darth Vader, if it's almost any person out there, you would say, "I'm not going to I'm not going to trust that, right?Um you know, because like maybe this this this other guy will be just lying and saying, 'Oh, here's the new state of Bitcoin.I own all the Bitcoin, right?'"So, STARKs allow you to do exactly that.You can give anyone You can tell anyone, "Hey, just go process a day's worth of Bitcoin transactions and just tell me what is the new state of Bitcoin."It's called the UTXO set.Like what is it?
But, you need to give me this like this little sort of cryptographic proof that I'm going to check.And only if it passes, I will accept it.The magic of the math of STARKs is that even if you gave this task to Darth Vader, the only way that he can give you a STARK proof that you will accept is if the actual UTXO set thatthey end up giving you is correct.It really reflects the transactions of Bitcoin throughout that day.So, it's like this thing It's like this fairy dust that you can sprinkle on any other party and make it completely trustworthy.
And and so, this is in the context of privacy, right?Can you now explain STARKs as simply as possible, but in the context of how they work better than anything else against what we just discussed, the quantum quantum computing threat?
Yes, there are two There are two main classes of how to build uh proof systems, these things that give you a small assurance that something happened very well.Um like in Zcash what we did are called uh elliptic curve SNARKs.But the problem is that they melt away under a quantum computer.They get completely broken.And then you have ZK-STARKs.The nice thing about ZK-STARKs is that the cryptography there is robust against quantum computers.So, while uh the SNARKs of Zcash are also used in Ethereum and a bunch of other places would melt away and be broken under a quantum computer, ZK-STARKs are the high ground.They are a form of cryptographic proof that people operated correctly even if they're not showing you all the things that they've done.And they remain intact even against quantum computers.
So, this is arguably a better technology.
Yes, it is arguably a better technology.By the way, on several different fronts.It doesn't require a trusted setup.There's like some sort of trust assumptions that you have to have with like uh Zcash-like system um and others.It is extremely efficient in terms of scale, right?You could process you know, millions of transactions uh with very low cost.So, so they're much more scalable.They don't have this uh toxic waste aspect and they're post-quantum secure.Yes, they are a far better technology, ZK-STARKs.They are the future.And by the way, if you look at Ethereum's road map and you you look at Vitalik's tweets and when he talks about it, like this is the high ground that Ethereum is moving towards.So, Ethereum is moving towards the StarkNet vision of using ZK-STARKs and uh you know, infrastructure that that that supports them.Um these are called ZK-VMs.
Um Ethereum is moving towards this high ground of ZK-STARKs.
I had Gavin Wood on this podcast twice already.
And obviously he co-founded Ethereum.He's the creator of the Ethereum Virtual Machine.
And then he went on to build Polkadot, which had a very different technical architecture, arguably arguably better than Ethereum.
But, Polkadot never achieved Ethereum's level of adoption.Right?You have a kind of similar story in that you helped develop Zcash, like you helped develop Ethereum, and Zcash is kind of taking off as in terms of adoption, right?How do you avoid becoming the next Gavin Wood, the guy with incredible technology as a second project that the market ultimately doesn't choose?
That's a terrific question.Um, I think that you know, obviously I don't I I don't have a crystal ball to see the future, right?But, I know what my North Star is, or what our North Star is, and it is, I would say, crypto agility, meaning building the very best technology that should be used, you know, post-quantum secure, with privacy.With privacy that is easy to use, programmable privacy.Um, now we're considering building layer one to become more agile and remove the dependency from Ethereum's, I think, maybe too slow road map towards quantum safety.So, I don't know what the future holds, but I do know where I am heading to.And where I am heading to is to be the fastest, most agile, most correct form of post-quantum secure, programmable privacy uh, privacy-preserving money.Um, whether the world needs that or wants that, I don't know, but I know that we can deliver it first and best, and that's what I want to build.
He explains why a new layer one may be needed and how StarkNet can help other chains adapt to quantum threats. This section also covers account abstraction, the role of the STRK token, and the network’s governance and security model.
You said we are about to move to a a layer one.Do we really need another layer one?
Well, you tell me when a quantum computer hits, or when superintelligence, you know, solves makes uh, signatures more quickly, and I'll tell you if we need it or not.If it's never or in 10 years, then I don't need that.But, we don't know, right?And already now, the markets are very jittery, and they are Look, the number of things like sovereign wealth funds, very large financial institutions, you know, asset allocators, leaders from core large protocols have reached out to me and myteam to consult, ask if we can help, ask us what we're doing.Um obviously, I'm not going to name any names.But, I can tell you that a lot of people in the leadership of blockchain, DeFi, some in TradFi, as I said, nation-states are looking to StarkNet to help and lead the way on this thing.
Do you think that today, in late 2026, the big asset allocators actually are not investing or not as much as they want to because of this potential quantum problem in in Bitcoin?
Yeah.Yes.I mean, there I think there are two at least two very large factors, maybe even three.One large factor is just that, right?Uh AI is still sucking all of the oxygen in the room in terms of investments and mindshare, and I don't have a problem with that.Obviously, like AI is the biggest, uh you know, revolution in in our lifetime.So, that's one thing that asset allocators or, you know, VCs, investors are eager about.But, I think it will at some point it will sort of uh uh even out.The second thing, obviously, is this concern, which is related to AI as well, right?Because part of it is the concern that like superintelligence will break some of the cryptography used.And we've seen a little bit of this happening already.So, that is also a weight on asset allocators, on investors, when they see Bitcoin, when they see Ethereum, when they see other chains.
Uh I I know this for a fact, because as I said, many of these asset allocators are looking up to us, asking us, you know, what do you say about it?You know, can you help us solve the problem?So, yes, I'm 100% sure that this is something that that impacts investment right now.
Can you explain as simply as possible to me, a simple media guy who doesn't really understand techno very techy stuff, how StarkNet can help these different protocols?Right, how does it actually work?Cuz you mentioned potential layer one.Like, do they need to migrate everything onto your layer one or do you simply integrate into what they're doing already?Let's say an application on Ethereum or on Solana says, "We need this technology that help us become private and quantum secure.Can you just plug into what we do?Like, how does that work?"
Well, we definitely want to try and help all of the chains that we can and and and want to help.I'll give an example.So, um the first quantum safe Bitcoin transaction that exists today on Bitcoin, first of all, the ingenious math behind it was done at my team by Avihu Levy, a brilliant researcher.And um StarkWare, uh my team implemented the very first transaction, and we're now, you know, exploring whether to productize it.So, this is a case of offering a little bit of help to Bitcoin on Bitcoin's terms within Bitcoin for that.Um but it's very limited again without a soft fork, which I was very much be happy to help with.Um but but without a soft fork, there's not so much you can do to save Bitcoin if a quantum computer arises tomorrow.Um same thing with with other chains.As I said, a lot of people are talking to us, and we're exploring ways to help them.
Um there are some things that just will allow us to move fastest with StarkNet, which is also something that we plan to do.Now, these things are that First of all, the underlying technology that supports most of the security of StarkNet, except for the dependency on Ethereum, which we're now exploring whether to remove, this core technology is ZK-STARK, which if yougo to the title of the white paper that I published in 2018, it talks about um post-quantum secure zero-knowledge.That is the title of the paper from 2018, long before people were aware of the a quantum threat.This is already something we published.And then, in 2018, we started implementing this.So, the core infrastructure of StarkNet uses quantum-safe technology.Another decision that is available only on StarkNet is what is called account abstraction, which means I'll explain this way.On Bitcoin, on Ethereum, on Solana, on Zcash, on almost every chain, the kind of cryptography you must use to send a transaction is enshrined.
It is like molding a specific lock into a huge building, and if you need to replace this lock because it's been broken, which is what a quantum computer will do, you need to really like tear out a largepart of the building and replace it.We, with StarkNet, built something called account abstraction, which means there is no enshrined way to sign messages.It is just the same effort to sign it with uh something that's quantum-secure as it is with anything else.So, we don't need to change anything in order for the infrastructure to support quantum stuff.And then, the last thing is this exploration of a layer one, which will remove the dependency from Ethereum, so that it becomes most the most crypto-agile blockchain out there with no dependencies and fully sort of bunker mode uhin case uh folks want it.So, just summarizing, we are helping Bitcoin and other chains to the best that they allow us to, and there's a lot more that I cannot speak about.
But then, there's also the stuff that I can speak about because it's like our own, you know, project, and that is StarkNet and we're going to rush as quickly as possible to make it the bunker.
StarkNet has a token STRK.Why?
Well, why does any chain have a token?It is so that the uh first of all, the value in the network accrues to those who support it, who believe in it.It is right now STRK, and I'm emphasizing right now, is a proof-of-stake based uh decentralized layer two, which means that the token is used for governance.It's uh you know, for instance, the vote that is taking place now on whether uh we should build an L1 or not.Who should decide on this?And how do you decide?Well, you want people in the ecosystem, people who care about it to decide.So, you want a dedicated token.It's doesn't make any sense to allow whatever to conduct some other some other way.Um to the extent that this layer one emerges and is going to be a proof-of-work, this token will be the minting token so that it rewards the security.
But, uh summarizing, it needs it for the security and the decentralized operation of the network that is StarkNet.
The speaker gives examples of real applications on StarkNet, including trading and private payroll. He argues that the biggest adoption wave may come from businesses and autonomous agents needing scalable, private blockchain infrastructure.
Can you give me an example of an application built on StarkNet and why it couldn't be built on any other protocol?
Okay, there are many, but I'll give you just one example.Um this example uh it is an app an app that is accessible.You can look it up.It's already live.It's called supervega.app or that is supervega.app
and it is a retail-facing options trading platform with a very good UX.And uh you can go there and and uh trade options for assets like uh StarkNet, the STRK you mentioned, for Zcash, for lighter.Uh Uh, we're going to add things like uh near and uh, the long tail of uh uh, assets that are hot today.So, this is an application that is being developed by my team, by StarkWare.And um, it has an amazingly efficient UX, which is very pleasant to use.And underlying all of this is this native account abstraction which I mentioned, which basically translates into very very good and seamless UX coming from any chain.Uh, so you get very good experience alongside full self-custody and uh, very efficient settlement, which is backed by massive compute.All of this is available only on StarkNet because of the scalability, the um, account abstraction, which translates into good UX.
So, you can just check it out and see for yourself if if if it feels and looks like other applications you've seen on other blockchains.
Beyond trading and speculation, what's the killer application that privacy-preserving, quantum-resistant blockchains could unlock over the next decade?
Well, there are many.I'll just mention a few.First of all, businesses cannot conduct their businesses in full, in earnest, without privacy and scale and low cost.And these things that exist only on StarkNet, right?You cannot have Okay.We actually pay StarkWare employees that want to get their salary, uh, they can receive it in the form of stable coins on StarkNet.But, my CFO said, I cannot do this if I don't have privacy.Well, we built a solution and others are using it as well, where uh, CFOs and companies can pay in stable coins on StarkNet salaries to their employees without employees knowing what each other got.Right?So, this is one of many many um, Um, if you want businesses uh large and small to really work over a blockchain, which is what I think the future is, you need something with a high scale, the efficiency,
the safety, the post-quantum security, the agility um of StarkNet.So, that's one use case.The other huge use case, which is actually I think how I predict the world will come to adopt blockchain is from the agentic economy because let me uh expand on this.Today, if you're living in many of the developed world countries, um when it comes to payments and a lot of the economic activity, you're sort of uh you know, even though you pass through centralized entities that control ourlives and so on, you get a very good user experience.But, when you come to serve the agent economy, and we'll be quickly moving to a financial world where much of our actions and activities are now managed by agents on our behalf, I believe that the blockchain world, especiallyif it has things like the scale, the privacy, the agility of StarkNet, is much more suited to uh cater to these agents than you than you know, the conventional world.
So, I think the way it's going to work is that we will want agents to do more for us.The agents are going to find it much easier to transact on things like StarkNet, and then the humans are going to come along.And finally, the large, you know, banks and traditional institutions, they'll come last.
Let's bring this back to why crypto matters in the first place.If you succeed in building a private, scalable, quantum-resistant financial system, what changes for an ordinary person who has no idea who you are?
Well, first of all, I think um you know, you could look at the evolution of of money as a store of value.Gold was the ultimate store of value.Now, I guess most of your listeners are aware of digital gold, which is Bitcoin.Some of them may be aware and already exposed to um Zcash, which says, "Well, for gold or for money, for the store of value thing, you need more and you need privacy."Um I think there's a spot not yet taken for the store of value, the money, which also has agility, post-quantum security, and programmable privacy.So, I think one thing that people they won't know, you know, me, my name, what what StarkWare is, but they may refer to STRK as an X version of digital gold.Okay, which has the necessary properties that you want from money.And then, even more pervasively, for instance, if you look at the Ethereum.
So, if you look at what Vitalik is talking about, Ethereum is heading towards where StarkNet is now.So, even if you're not aware of StarkNet, the technologies that we productize, that we unleashed, that we invented, are the future of blockchain already today.Everyone is talking about moving to hash-based ZK.Hash-based ZK is ZK STARKs.I co-invented it.We productized it first.We showed the world that this is a usable technology.So, this is going to be just like, you know, the iPhone, there's the iPhone, but maybe you use a Samsung or something.You are still a descendant, you're right, you're some, you know, you're an offspring, or your iPhone, sorry, your smartphone is an offspring of Steve Jobs' iPhone, right?Which is then an offspring of the iPod, the thousand songs in your pocket.So, ZK STARKs is the future.This hash-based, scalable, privacy-preserving form of quantum-resistant proving is the future of uh of blockchain, and because it's the future of all of blockchain, it's the future of the digital economy, of the agentic economy.
And uh you know, we did it first.Everyone now is adopting that, which I think is great.
He reflects on the main risk to his thesis: that centralized systems may remain more convenient and dominant. The conversation ends with his core message that decentralized, privacy-preserving, quantum-resistant technology can make the economy fairer and better.
Um I believe we have a chance at remaining first and best at it.
What's the biggest risk that you might be wrong about your vision of the future?
The biggest risk is very simple.There is a lot of convenience in uh centralized systems.I'll give analogies of this.If you look throughout history, dictatorships and totalitarian regimes have been the uh the majority of of of you know, political systems.And just like in Greece at some point uh you know, democracy evaporated.In the Roman Empire in the early days, there was some Republican system, which was uh not quite a democracy, but closer to it, and that gave way.Um and today like we're all looking at the political world and asking ourselves, you know, will democracies thrive in in 50 years?The biggest threat threat to to to my vision, to the vision of blockchain, is maybe the world doesn't need that.Maybe the world is happy with having a very small number of very large companies that you know, we entrust everything with them.
So, this is already the case with TradFi.Um it may be the end case for AI, right?Maybe we'll just all consume like a few models coming from these huge labs that are going to control everything.And uh I think that is the biggest risk.But I I am on the side of those believing that you know, democracy, decentralization, empowerment of individuals is going to win.It's better for humanity, and I'm fighting for that.But that is the biggest risk that I may be wrong, right?Maybe centralized systems are more efficient, and the world will just keep on using them.That would be very sad.
What's the one thing that people should remember from today's conversation?
I hope they remember
my vision, which is that throughfuturistic technology, which is post-quantum secure, solves scalability and privacy, we can make the economic world more fair and better for each and every one of your listeners.Um and that I hope they understand that this is what gets me up every morning from bed, has been so um you know, for the past more than 10 years, and as such I love and support I'm ananti-maxier.Sometimes I call myself I'm a ZK-Stark maxi.I believe in this technology, but I love and admire Bitcoin and Ethereum and Solana and obviously Zcash, which I co-founded, and many of the other um chains out there because I mean, I want StarkNet to succeed.I'm very happy that my first project Zcash has already succeeded to a large extent, but even more than that, I I just want to you know, decentralization, blockchain, the use of good technology that empowers individuals.
I want that to win.That is really what I want most.And I hope your listeners took away that from this episode.Thank you so much, Eli, for doing this.That was awesome.And thank you for waking up since every day since more than 10 years to try to make the future better a better word.Thank you, Kevin.Thank you for your you know, for like spreading the gospel and uh educating people about all this important industry that is blockchain.
Awesome.Thank you.