Transcript
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The conversation opens with the idea that singers should think like athletes and treat their voices as a physical instrument. Mama Jan introduces her philosophy of excellence, sustainability, and the importance of understanding vocal anatomy.
Usher was 17 when he came in.He was always fast, but he wasn't always accurate.And then he was fast and accurate, and then we cut confessions.Singers need to start thinking like athletes, because you're a vocal athlete.
It's the same thing as working out in the gym.
Yeah.
Why would you go in and start just like powerlifting 450?
Well, start there.Let's talk about
Let's start here.
Okay.
How many vocal chords do you have?
No idea.
And most singers don't know, and they're calling themselves singers.
Sometimes people just suck.You may just suck.
I call my work I clean vocal toilets, so that's what I do for a living.With Justin, you're going from a small town to being in front of 20,000 people.What happens if he loses his voice?
Oh, he loses millions.
I put band-aids on dams all the time.This dam's going to break.It's a matter of when, not if.
Yeah.
Beyoncé doesn't care what key the demo singer did the song in.If you did it in the key of B and she wants it in the key of E flat, you're going to do the song in E flat.
Hell yeah.
I don't care how you feel when you're singing, I care how I feel when you're singing.My goal is not perfection.My goal is excellence.
The hosts celebrate Mama Jan's long career and impressive client list before she explains how her background in gospel and music led her to study the science of singing. The discussion sets up a deeper dive into how voices actually work.
I've worked with over 10,000 people, so it's it's a little
Guys, do you hear that?We got Mama Jan on the podcast.Oh my god.
it when you live your life Well, when you live your life and you do what you do, let's multiply that times 40 years
40 years
of seeing people every day of the week, right?Multiple people every day of the week.Multiply that out times 365 days a year, and and you'll get, you know, quite a quite a good list.
Uh you've got a great list, Mama Jan.We are so excited to have you on the podcast.
Most people wouldn't get her list, though.That's a hell of a list.
hell of a list.I mean, you're you got to be the goat vocal coach in the industry.I mean, it it's got to be.
So
Does anyone else even compare?I mean, shoutout to all you other a coaches out there, but I vote goat.Let's go.It's got to be the greatest of all time right here in the studio right here talking to you guys.
I I appreciate that but there are other very gifted coaches and and I I had the good fortune of doing what I do before other people really fell in line to do it.I knew enough to be dangerous grew up in gospel churches so I know how to sing and I know how to I hear in harmonic you know intervalic stuff and so I understood enough about music what I didn'tknow enough about was the physiology of singing and that's really where I had to brush up my skill set and learn a whole lot about the functionality of my own voice not just to help somebody else but forme too.
Yes.
Sort of the science of it right?
I'm so interested in that.
It's very scientific.
That's what I was telling Henry I was like man I'm so just I don't know I'm excited to dive into like the nerdy like I watch a lot of your content and like you're getting into kind of likewhat's really going on when you're singing.
I'm excited about because I work with an artist who has worked closely with Chan.Shout out Leah Culver.We love you Leah.
She was episode four of the podcast
She was actually episode four.You're going to be episode like 280 something or uh
Mama Jan explains how many vocal cords humans have, where they are located, and how they function. She breaks down their structure, vibration, and role in producing pitch.
But she would she'll come in here and you know we'll like load up a beat and she's got an idea for it and the first thing she does is stuff likeI'm like what is happening when you're doing that?
Okay let's start let's start there.Let's let's talk about
Let's start here.
Okay.
How many vocal cords do you have?
No idea.
Literally no you could tell me I have a hundred or you could tell me I have one I have no idea.
And most people don't know and most singers don't know and they're calling themselves singers right?Most people just walking around don't understand how really magnificent your vocal cords are.
So how many do we have?
Well I hang on I'm going to answer that and and you know where they're located in your body?
My throat?Somewhere right here?
Okay I'll give you partial credit for that of course.Do you know what they're made out of?
Some cord-like atoms
atoms Okay.
neutrons
Okay.Do you know how they function?
No.
No.
This is so cool.This is really the dopest thing on the planet, okay?
Yes.
You have two vocal cords.
Okay.Good.
There is no synthetic fiber on the planet Earth as of today's date, 2026, that can duplicate or replace their function in the human body.So, we can't give you another pair.
Not even like stem cells?
The pair that Not Not yet.They may be able to do that eventually, but the pair that you have is the only pair you're ever going to have to our knowledge right now.
They're important.
if you, you know, when people have damage or they have to have surgery or cancer or things like that, we can't give you another pair.We can We can do rehab.We can help you move forward from there, but we can't ever go backwards.So, for singers to understand how to take care of their voices is incredibly uh important to their process and to their future, to their sustainability, right?So, two vocal cords.Okay, guys, I want you to feel your your larynx, that cage in your throat.That's kind of like the rib cage for two pipes that come up from underneath here.The pipe in the front is your windpipe, the pipe in the back is your esophagus, okay?They come together right about where your trachea is, and the wind I mean the the larynx protects them, okay?So, right where your Adam's apple is, feel your feel your Adam's apple.
Right behind there, horizontally over your windpipe is where your vocal cords live.Over your windpipe, so nothing you swallow ever passes through them.
Okay.
Everybody thinks, "Oh, if I take a sip of water before I have to talk or sing or whatever, it never touches your vocal cords because your vocal cords are over your windpipe.They're actually part of the anatomy that protects your lungs, so they close when you swallow.And the epiglottis closes over them, the esophagus opens up, and food and water goes down the back chute, right?So, it takes it takes like 25 minutes up to 5 hours for that water to process through your body to get back up to hydrate your vocal cords.And what they're made out of I want you to feel your ear, okay?Behind your behind your headphone.
Mhm.
So, soft cartilage
Mhm.Okay, yeah.
with a whole lot of human collagen and this stuff called epithelium
Mhm.
all mixed together to make these two little bitty thin strips of fiber that sit over a hole that's about the size of a quarter.And the way that they work is they vibrate like this over 100 times per second.So, faster than you blink your eyes, your vocal cords have already vibrated over 100 times and they go upwards of that.So, they move so fast we can't even see them really functioning with the naked eye.They had to create like a a stroboscopy like a strobe light so we can even slow it down enough to watch the activity of how they move.Kind of like a You know what an electric eel looks like?How the fin?They almost look like that.When they're moving, they're fluid.
Mhm.
And they move like that.And as we pull them tighter, they don't get longer.There's nowhere else for them to go.So, when you pull them tighter, they thin out, vibrate even faster, and that's how we change pitch.That's how we get high notes and low notes.So, there you go.
The hosts ask what makes each singer's voice different, leading into a discussion of DNA, physiology, and the power of sound. Mama Jan emphasizes that sound is deeply connected to emotion, communication, and even faith.
That's incredible.I have so I have I have about a thousand questions, but I'm just I'm ready.So, but before we actually get into like the studio session prep and stuff cuz I do want to That's definitely a part of what I want to touch on.Like, scientifically speaking, what makes people sound different?Like, what makes their voice sound unique?
So, what makes you have What color eyes do you have?
Uh brown.
Okay, what color your eyes?
Blue green.
Okay, mine are hazel.
Mhm.
What makes that happen?
DNA.
God.
Okay, basically hereditary DNA is going to determine certain things about your physiology.And it also determines to a certain degree the den- the density and the flexibility of like muscles and everything else in your body.Well, your vocal cords are part of that anatomy, which is why I always start there with singers cuz if you don't understand the physical function first, I mean it's yes, it's spiritual, but it's also physical.And if you don't control your physiology, you can't control any of the rest of it.
Mhm.
So, it starts there.
How much do you think is nature versus nurture?Is there Can you give a guess on like the ratio?Are some people just born better singers?
Are some people just born better basketball players?
I think so.
Do babies know about basketball?
No.
Uh no.But do babies come into the world making sound?
Yes.
Absolutely, they do.It's the most natural thing that we do.
Yeah.
We're born to praise.And so, that And that's the real real.We It It doesn't It's not about the words or the pitch.It's about opening your mouth and making the sound.Dig this.Music is the only thing that can enter your heart and your mind without your permission.
Mhm.
Wow.
When you think about the power of that Now, this is me.I'm I'm going to This is my faith, okay?
Fine.
But if you think about uh In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.How?How?He spoke.It was the sound the sound of God's voice that created And And that's the biblical uh you know, account, okay?So, when I think of sound, when I think the power of sound and vibration, how can How in the world can we look inside a woman's body and see a baby?It's sound waves.It's incredible.
It's ultrasound.
We are we
Literally.Literally.
But I'm just saying.You're absolutely right.Sound is ultra.We can heal disease.We can We can see things behind walls with sound.
Yeah.
We just don't even know half of it right now.Sound is so powerful.You can You can literally crush somebody with a word that comes out of your mouth or you can lift them up out of complete depression.
Yeah.
Sound is is to me is the most important communication.It It's one of the the most un- I don't think It's like the ocean.We don't even know even a tenth of of what all it can do.
Yeah, so much ex- exploration to be had.Okay.
Mama Jan explains the most common issues she addresses with singers, starting with form, breathing, pitch, and support. She also discusses how she balances preserving an artist's character while improving their technique.
Interesting.So, of like the 10,000 artists that have walked, you know, through your doors, right?And and that you've helped, what are the most common things that you focus on in helping them, you know, get better at singing?Like are there some common threads?
Knowledge is power.
Okay.
The application of that makes you more successful.Uh spell the word performance for me.
No, I p e r f o r m a n c e.
Good.What's the word right in the middle?
Form?
Correct.And so I'm looking at form first.
Mhm.
Because if your form is poor, your performance is always going to suffer.
And what do you mean by form specifically?
Form, are you How is somebody breathing?Are they having difficulty, you know, being able to hold a note out?Do they have a lot of air tone in their voice?Or is their voice raspy?Um you know, form issues like how are they presenting their voice just in general?
Mhm.
Uh does their voice clip, pop, break?Can they hit their falsetto?Do they have falsetto?What's their range like?Are they limited?Any any of the things that have to do with basic form.And and and dealing with those first because air is sound, so breathing is incredibly important.Working with people on, you know, good diaphragmatic breathing and compression.Not Not because people don't breathe with their diaphragm.You can't breathe without it.Um and people talk about singing from their diaphragm.Well, you can't sing without it.
Mhm.
But how you compress the air makes a big big difference in your longevity, how you're going to be able to endurance, how you're going to hold a note out.And then working with people on some of the other things like tone, dynamics, you know, all the other things that make you a better singer.But at the bottom, the base of all that is are you breathing well?And then can you hear and delineate pitch?
Yeah.Those two things if you can't do that we stay there.
So I feel like some of my favorite singers have some of these like unique qualities and some would maybe call them like flaws quote unquote in their voice and their vocal tone and the way they sing.
Understood.
Yeah, how do you know what to what to fix and what to not?
So you're talking about character?
Yeah, like Bob Dylan walks through your doors, right?And it's like I don't even know if that's the best example.Like pick a pick someone you might like.
So Bob's voice is very unique.
Yeah.
He's very nasal.
Mhm.
I don't particularly love his voice.
Okay.
I love I love this example then.I I love his writing.I love his troubadourism and also what he means to the industry in terms of his songs and what he's contributed.His voice is unique and people either love it or they don't.And I'm good with that, right?He's his is just a sound that never really resonated well with me because of you know, how you doing?It's it's like
you don't talk to me like that.Why you singing like that?Right?So I would me personally, if I was working with him as a client, I would I would help him understand that his residence has become his thumbprint.So is he going to change it?Well, why?Right?But if he wanted to be a clearer, better singer and work on tone and character in a different way, I could help him do that.So my job is not necessarily to take away from the character that somebody has, but to help them be able to do that with excellence.And if there are things that are contributing to I can't hold the note out a whole long time or I'm having diff- I'm getting hoarse.I'm losing my voice.Okay, then why is that happening?And backing up from there to help them clear that up so that they can be better what they're doing.
Yeah, I just wonder.I mean, you know, had he come through
He would be singing clearer.
Yeah, and but do you and do you think he wouldn't be Bob Dylan though?Well, that's what I'm wondering.Like do you think that would have
I think he would be.He would be a different Bob Dylan perhaps.
I don't think he'd be the Bob Dylan though.
And his and his voice actually he's he has had vocal instruction from my understanding.I I didn't work with him, but his voice did clarify somewhat and was better in in my estimation.But like you said, he got known for that sound though.
Yeah.
Right?So when people and and clients are really concerned about that.Yeah, I bet.It's like you're not going to change my style.It's like no, that's not my job.I'm I'm I'm here to
Amplify.
Yes, to help you be sustainable at that.
Yeah.
So it's it's not really about changing some the character of somebody's voice.A lot of times people need to learn how to do that.Like I know where to go in my voice.If I want to sound like you know, I can do that.
was a pretty good impression honestly.I was like hey Bob.
No, but but I'm saying if but I but I have Barbara Dylan?Wow, okay.
That's great.
But but I know where in my voice to do to go to get that.I can emulate sounds because I know how to manipulate my voice.And so helping other people be able to do that helps them to find shapes and characters and sounds that they want to have.
Sure.
She describes how a first session begins with an assessment of the singer's abilities and limitations. The conversation turns to pitch deafness, tone deafness, and why some people simply cannot be helped in the same way.
So understood that there's probably a lot of variability in the way that you might work with a particular artist and and what a session might look like, but what are some common just like frameworks or like how doesa session go?Like I show up, am I warming up, am I performing my songs?Like just give us a little glimpse into like what a session with you might look like.
The The first time anybody comes in to see us and and when I say us it's not just me.I can't I can't see everybody.I have a great staff and and all of my coaches have been trained by me.Which is important to me to carry that handprint forward.But we all we all do a basic assessment.It's an evaluation to get some information before I'm going to put my hands around somebody's throat so to speak.I want to know what I'm what I'm working with.And also where somebody's at on that continuum.Are you a beginner?Are you an amateur?Are you you know somewhere in between?Are you a professional singer?Do you know what you're doing?Do you know what you're doing but you've damaged your voice?Do you have you know any kind of injury that I'm I really have to look at?
So we want to get the basic idea.Can you delineate pitch?Are you breathing okay?Can you sing Happy Birthday and stay in tune and not change the reference?
Do you
Do you hear Do you hear notes?I mean can Do you know anything about theory?Do you understand intervals, the space between notes?Do you have any style at all?Are Are you a stylist and you're having difficulty with support system?So people land on that eval form and then we kind of customize what we do around that information.
Okay.
So if you came in, first I would do that.
Yeah.
Depending on what's indicated there.In your case you said, "Well, I I can't sing Happy Birthday."Okay, well, we're going to start with pitch and understanding notes.So is there any kind of tonal or integration problem?Do you have a hearing issue?Do you Can you really
I just talked about that.I think he does.
I might have a hearing issue.
Do you know how loud his headphones are right now?
They're very loud.
isn't the same as understanding notes but
I'm pitch deaf for sure.But also maybe regular deaf.
So you think you're pitch deaf?
Kind of.
Okay, so hang on.So do this.If I go ba Match the note.Ba
Okay.That's it.
So you're not tone deaf.
Yeah.
Okay.
Because people who are pitch pitch deaf or or tone deafness, sometimes people just suck.You might just suck.
I think I think it's
I think it's
The latter.
Henry's having a field day with this right now.The best episode.
That's really that's really true.
Thanks.You really just keep going Mama Jan.
Well, you're the one who said it.You're the one who said I pitch deaf.You're not pitch deaf.
You said I suck.
Well, because you're not pitch deaf.
So, I guess that's better.I don't know.
You don't have an excuse.
Tone tone Well, you haven't really evaluated how bad you suck at this point.So, we don't really know that.
It's bad Mama Jan.
No, no, no.Here here's the real real So, um if somebody's really tone deaf, that's a type of deafness.We can't correct that.So, when somebody can't sing and they they would never be able to even match the note.They would sing something totally different and think that they were in tune with me and they wouldn't be.
Oh, wow.
That's real pitch deafness or tone deafness.You're not tone deaf at all.I mean, you hit it within seconds.
Yeah.
So, not to worry there.
Okay.
The rest of it we'd have to see.
But, if people are tone deaf, I also won't take their money and I won't work with them.
Really?
Because I can't help that.
Can't work with that.
No, I can't I I I can't fix that.
Yeah.
That's a scientific thing then at that point.
You're tone deaf.
It's literally it's a diagnosis.
It's a type of that.
From doctor Mama Jan.
It's like color blindness.
Yeah, yeah.That's what I thought of.
You can't see it, you can't see it.
Wow.
Unless you put the glasses on.And and tone deafness I just tell people you know, the Bible says make a joyful noise.Go.Go and sing.And it doesn't matter.If you can sing in tune or not because you're never going to be able to and you're not going to know the difference.
Interesting.
The discussion shifts to voice protection for touring artists, including hydration, steam, and lifestyle habits. Mama Jan explains how touring, late nights, smoking, and poor eating can damage the voice.
Okay, so how much of it is like protecting an artist's voice versus, you know, helping them improve it.Like the cases that you see, would you say?Is it always like you got to make sure they're protecting it cuz that's like priority number one always?You just recorded your favorite song.The world has to hear this music, Henry.
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Let's get back to the episode.What the hell?
Um well, for sustainability, for longevity, yeah.And if I've got people who are touring and it's it's really difficult because you're talking about a whole lot of expectation from those two little strips of fiber that sit in your neck.
Yeah.
And a lot of times it's not the singing that's taking away from from the singer.It's talking, having to do interviews, doing phoners in the car.It's it's staying up late at night.We're smoking dope.We're, you know, eating Cheetos.We're not sleeping.We're not eating well.I'm eating pizza, and then I'm going to sleep, and I've got food in my stomach, and you I've got acid reflux.That'll burn the crap out of your vocal cords.So, it's just
That's what happened to my vocal cords.And all the Cheetos.
And all the all the all the Cheetos.
I swear, bro.
Uh no offense, Cheetos or pizza, but uh no
Please sponsor us.
Uh I'm I'm saying, you know, there there are lifestyle habits that come into play that can really be detrimental to the functionality of basic singing.
Yeah.Wow.
are really, really hard to break because of touring and lifestyle on the road.
Yeah, how when does vocal coach turn into life coach at that point?You know, there just seems like
I kind of think one in the same.
Yeah.
Um because it, you know, we cross territory often.And a lot of times, you know, when I'm working with a client for a long period of time, I am a security blanket.I become the security blanket to make sure they have me come and do tour prep or I go, you know, to the shows to make sure that I Are we okay?We're going to have a You're going to have a great show.Come on, you know, and check them out to make sure that they're actually okay for what they're doing cuz there's a whole lot of money that's on the table for those gigs.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's so true.So, so outside of the lifestyle things, what are some of the like practical singing things that they can incorporate to protect their voice?Are there things like, you know, that they should be doing while singing that contribute to the protection of their voice?
Sure, sure.I mean, well, let me back up one one quick thing.One of the lifestyle things is hydration and that's not just for us as singers, that's for you as a human being.
Yeah.
Making sure that you stay hydrated, yep, by the day.But staying hydrated is incredibly important to your to your heart, your lungs, but also to your vocal cords.So, people think that if I take a sip of water, that's going to help my voice.It's like, no, that'll help your voice in 25 minutes or
Is that how long it takes about?
25 minutes up to 5 hours for that to process through your body.
Yeah.
So, if you were drinking a lot of water yesterday and all day today, then you're going to be better tonight.You see what I'm saying?
Wow.
Yep.
Interesting.
And steam, steam is your friend.So, as a singer, getting people to steam, you know, as often as they can, that's going to immediately hydrate your voice.So, that's one thing.
Mama Jan demonstrates how air compression affects singing and why singers need to control airflow. She introduces warmup exercises like humming, falsetto, and sirens, comparing vocal preparation to athletic training.
Now, you're talking about the other parts of upkeep, do you work out?
Yeah, I try to.At least like exercise, run, walk, kind of deal.
we do it, we do not.
So yeah, she is my life coach, bro.
What?
conscious of Yoda, that's the Yoda rule.
Mhm.
So you're conscious of taking care of your body.
Yeah.
You want to stay fit, we want to, you know, walk, I'm trying to be healthy.Okay, if that's the case, you're a singer, are you working your voice out?
So what does that look like?
Uh it's pretty ugly sometimes.
Okay.Tell me more, tell me more.
a there's there's routine things that you can do to exercise your voice.You did the motorboat sound.Okay, so see that tells me something about you.
can't even do it.
That's better.Now you see how much
my was dry first.
We had a we we did a podcast before this, but I'm I'm a little, you know.But you start high like
Okay, so notice the difference in how much better No, no, no, I am.
Who's better?
The goat is better, what
Check this out.
It's way more chill.
It's so loud.
She's so loud, I can't.
I've started to fart.
like farting.The the goat.
So
They're kind of they're kind of like vibrating right now still, they're like tingling.
So there's a difference in how I'm compressing my air and how both of you are just like going
Yeah.
Right?Okay.
Yes.Yeah.
So you told me something really important
Okay.
about the lack of compression.So I want you both to do this, put your hand in front of your mouth and go and blow hot air on your hand.Okay?Now it You know what a coffee stirrer straw looks like?The little thin ones?Pretend like you have one of those in your mouth and you're going to go a little really cool hard air stream.Go ahead.But, I want you to feel the difference here.Now, blow hot air on your hand again.You see how
Hot air came from higher.
No, it comes from the same place, but you see how it just leaves your body really quickly.Now, do the cool air.You see how you're able to hold that longer?Uh
Yeah, because your
So, that's compressed.
smaller.
You're also compressing the air differently diaphragmatically.You're not letting as much come out.So, the first time you did it, you went
You like you had
so much coming out.
right.
And you couldn't hold it for a long period of time.
No.
If you were It's almost like if you're holding your breath under water.If you put your hand in front of my mouth, you're not going to feel a lot of air pressure coming out cuz I'm controlling the air flow.
Okay.
So, that's a really important thing for singers to learn.
Mhm.What does that do for them?
It helps you control your air.Air is everything.
Okay.So, just being able to sing for longer stretches at a time or something?
I mean, it lets you phrase better.And also, if I have You don't talk to me like that.Why are you singing like that?
Well, so you get more emotion in it.
Well, you can.But, also you're wasting fuel.It's almost like having a scuba tank with a hole in it.And you're trying to sing with the trying to get the same amount of air.
Uh
Right?Does that make sense?
Yeah.So, it's just yeah, it's wasted air.
It is.We're already We're already air short here at this moment.
And it also it also creates a thing called flutter tone.It makes the vocal cords hit unnaturally, which creates friction.Friction creates heat.Heat creates swelling.And if the vocal cords start to swell, you lose your high end because being able to pull them thinner gives us high notes, right?So, if you're harboring any kind of edema in the vocal cords, you're you're going to lose all your high notes.
So, how difficult is this for the average, you know, singer that walks through your doors to grasp?Like, you're like explaining this to me and like, you know, we're not here to do like a whole vocal lesson where we sing the whole time.
Yeah, but like
but it's still kind of like theoretically No, we do need it, but like we just we just Yeah, we we we just have way more important things to get to.
Um but like is it hard for them to grasp?Is it like some get it easier, some don't?Like
And for how long it takes is how I'm going to work with somebody.
Yeah.
And and it's people learn differently.Some people are visual learners, some are auditory, some are kinesthetic, some are a combination of that.I think one of the things that we do really well is we meet people where they are and kind of hang there with them until they get something, then we move on.Because I want to make sure that people understand it and and be able to apply it.It's not just about the knowledge, it's about applying it to whatever they're doing to make sure that it helps them be better.But one thing that's really true in physiology, it's kind of like if you do this, then you get that.If I take a 400-lb woman and put her or man and put them on a treadmill for 20 minutes a day and give them an extra bottle of water, they're going to lose weight.
Even if they eat Twinkies all night, we're going to have a difference in what's beginning to happen in the constitution of their body.Don't care how long it takes, but we're going to get a result because we've implemented something uniquely different to the heart and lungs and to the exercise of their body.Let's flow, etc., right?So, if you begin to do small things with your voice differently and you're exercising or doing little things with compression, you're going to there there's going to be a difference if you've never done it before.
Yeah, what are some other exercises that you think on a regular basis maybe you're helpful?
Humming in falsetto.
Can you give us an example?
Like go go to your church lady voice.Not loud, but
Yeah, humming.And humming through songs, doing things like that instead of just open fire singing.
Mhm.
You need to warm
What's happening there?Yeah.
When you're doing what?
Humming versus full-blown singing or whatever.Like what's the science behind what's happening?
more gentle way to warm the voice up.You're
Cuz this is a warm-up exercise?
blood flow and oxygenation going to the muscle prior to just like going, "Hey, let's run a marathon."Right?
So,
You stretch first.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.It's the same thing as working out in the gym.
Yeah.
Why would you go in and start just like power lifting 450?Right?You better work your way up to that.
Yeah.
Even if you're Even if you have the strength.Athletes know that.Professional runners, they're the greatest to watch because they're always, you know, out on the asphalt stretching their legs out before they run.Or do hurdles.When they come across the finish line, they don't even leave the track.They're down on the track stretching back up because if they don't, they know that lactic acid is going to form.They're going to get stiff.They're not going to be able to walk tomorrow, much less do hurdles, right?
Yeah.
So, singers need to start thinking like athletes.Because that's You're a vocal athlete.That's what you're doing.
The hosts ask how to package vocal preparation into a routine, and Mama Jan outlines minimum warmup time, conditioning, and cool-downs. She stresses that preparation should happen regularly, not just on performance days.
Can we round out the like routine?Like is there a routine Can we package this into like singer should do this before they go into like a serious session or be go perform on stage?
Uh So,
And are those two different things?
What?
session versus like a live performance as far as how they warm up.
Not really.
Okay.That's good.
part of it depends on the athlete.
Yeah.
What kind of shape they're in, right?But generally speaking, we know that about 15 minutes is what we would call uh what I call janitorial service.
Yes.
Um if you do less than that,
Janitorial.
No, janitorial.Uh Well, okay.
She didn't catch it.Y'all didn't catch it.I thought that was
I caught it.
You're late.
I mean, no.I was making sure she he she didn't catch it.
Fire.
My real
take that one.
My real name is Janet and my middle name starts with R, so I'm a janitor
Janitor, that's even better.It's even so
Well, I I call I call my work I clean vocal toilets, so that's what I do for a living.
Oh, she doesn't mean it, guys.
I do.
Damn, she's the goat.
If we're talking about basic physiology, getting blood flow oxygenation to the muscle, we know it takes about 15 minutes minimum time.
Okay.
Right?If I like to get people more, you know, in the the safety zone of 17 to 20, but um and and you guys, by the way, you make your living doing podcast?
Oh, no.
Not exactly.Oh, no, but if you like, comment and subscribe to the channel
contribute to our livings.
We could at least buy dinner.
And we would appreciate it.
Dinner, speaking of dinner, they had dinner, I didn't, but okay.
I didn't.I'm not going to hold that against you.
We were team no dinner yet.
I'll starve.
Don't put me in with him.We're
Maybe next time, okay.
Yes.
I should have offered to get Jan something.I'm not going to lie.
100% you should have.
It's okay.It's all right.I wouldn't have eaten it anyway.
Not before I sing.
Yes, it's true.
So, think about this, all right?So, 15 15 minutes is what we call minimum time.
Janitorial.
Basically, that's what you're doing, but how long does it take you when you wake up in the morning?How long does it take you to sound like you do now?
Yeah, probably like 15 20.
sounds right.
And some people will say, "Oh, it takes me an hour or whatever."So, it takes longer for their bodies to get to generate or they've had inflammation from the night before.You sit or dehydration.So, that's what we know to be the window.If you were going to sing at 7:00, then at 6:30 I would tell you we need to be doing something, but I don't think you just need to do something on the days that you sing.It's more important to me that you're, you know, conditioning
Yeah.
throughout the week, so that when you have a performance on Saturday you know, I'm I'm stacked.I'm ready to go.
Yeah.
And I'm still going to warm my voice up prior to the gig and then I'm also going to cool it down after the gig.Like when I say thank you very much, good night, and before even turn I unplug my guitar, I'm already cooling my voice down because I don't want to leave that heat and blood sitting in the muscle because ifI did that with my legs, what's going to happen?
Cramp.
Right.I'm going to I'm going to get cramps.I'm going to or or it's going to get stiff.And if my vocal cords are packing that heat, they're going to be swollen for tomorrow, which means I'm not going to be be able to hit my high notes or sing clear.
So, how do you cool your voice down?
The opposite of warming up.
So, there there's a series of exercises.
Okay.
Um I I don't know that this is the best use of time to go through all of that right now.
No, that's fine.
But so, there's an order of things and there are different exercises that people use that they like.Usually it has to do with scales and intervals and things like that, but I get people to do um breathing work, some type of cardiovascular things, jumping jacks and burpees, that kind of thing.Get your body up and running and get the heart flowing.Uh get blood flowing, oxygen going.Do a hissing sound like to set up the right kind of compressive style breathing, uh a buzzing sound likeThese are all things just to set up the right kind of vibratory activity and also air flow, right compression.The motorboat sound, that's a good one.The siren sound, doing little sounds like that that get the voice moving and the flexibility before you ever jump into sing.
Okay.
There and then humming and falsetto, what I told you about a minute ago.
Yeah.
Um doing some vowel sounds and all through scales and and that gives you the opportunity to kind of massage the voice up and open before you just kind of go, "Hey, we're going to sing."
Yeah.
Right?
And so then what about the actual performance?
What about it?
Are there things that, you know, they should be focused on as far as like ways to optimize the performance, you know, like strength or like ways to just kind of enhance the performance itself?Or is that all like done, you know, what I mean?Is that all done in practice?
of I mean, isn't that what practice is for?
Right.Okay.
I think I think by the time you hit the track and you're fixing to run the marathon,
Yeah.
you're in the Olympics, it's not time then to kind of start thinking about my form.I need to be It's not You you better have worked on that.
Okay, that has to be dialed in.
I think so.I mean, that and that to me, that's the best utilization of who I am as a as a coach.I'd rather be a front-end loader.I'd rather work with people prior to the tour than have be called in because they're having trouble.
Mhm.
It's okay.I can still troubleshoot as well, and I'm comfortable doing that at this point in my career, but the truth of the matter is if like athletically speaking, if you condition and you're ready for your event, you're going tobe as good as your conditioning is, right?So, if you haven't conditioned, chances are somebody else who has, if they're, you know, as equal to you as an athlete, they're going to they're going to kick it.
Yeah.
Because they're they're more prepared and and they have the advantage of the conditioning that's going to serve them in the event.
The conversation reframes the voice as the core of an artist's livelihood, especially for performers and podcasters. Mama Jan explains that many industry people lack basic vocal knowledge, which leads to avoidable problems.
I'm just so excited that we're doing this episode right now because I mean, I just don't know that I mean, you know, we focus a lot on this podcast about artists treating their careers like businesses, right?And that's a big thing, but I think it's interesting to think about like them treating their voice as the like
That is their business.
Exactly.Like it's just so related and I'm like, but that's your money.I know, that's what I'm That's why I'm having lightbulb moment after lightbulb moment.I'm like, damn, this is way more important than I even thought it was getting you on the podcast.I'm like, holy
Check this out cuz you're a podcaster, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
I get allegedly.
Allegedly so.I'm I'm sitting here.
And the ghost is sitting here.So we did something right.
So who would be in your estimation one of the greatest podcasters that we know of right now?
Rogan.Let's just call it.
Okay.What happens if he loses his voice?
Oh, he he loses millions.Yeah.
So we're not podcasting, are we?Okay, if Joe Rogan if his voice goes down, hey Joe, give me a call.If his voice goes down, not No, but I'm serious.And and by the way, I'm not just a vocal coach for singers.I work with pastors.I work with politicians.I work with people who are talking heads on television.If you have vocal cords and you make your I work with actors and actresses.If you make your living with your vocal cords, hello.Right?If Joe Rogan's voice goes down, his show stops.
Yeah.Yeah.
Okay.So the benefit of knowing what you're doing and knowing what you're doing it with.And where does his money sit?
Sponsorships, ads.
His money sits in his throat.His money sits in his throat.
Tape Never mind.I don't even want to go there.
So you understand what I'm saying?
Yeah, it's a it's extremely it's a revenue driver, that's for sure.
I ask major artist, major singers, people who know a lot who are very knowledgeable, how many vocal cords do you have?They do not know.
That's insane.
They do not know.How many vocal coaches have you had?Five, six, seven, 10.But they don't I'm like how did how do we miss this?
Yeah.How do we miss this?Yeah.
It's basic information.People still think that if they drink water, it goes through their vocal cords.I'm like, no, it doesn't.
thought that.I definitely thought that.
Yeah, for sure.
ask me about smoking.Miss Janda, smoking, is that bad for your voice?Okay.So here's a question for you.If somebody set this building on fire
Oh god.
and smoke comes billowing down the hall, Are we going to walk out the hall and go
I'm not going to do that.
Why are we not going to do that?
Cuz there's smoke everywhere, Mama Jean.
So?What does that have to do with anything?
I'll choke and die.
Uh-oh.So, what you're saying is smoke inhalation will kill you.
I think that's what I'm saying.
She just did it.
Do you have any questions?
No.No further questions.
Okay.So, when people ask me about and and really, guys, I'm not This is not rocket science.I appreciate the goat reference, but the truth of the matter is what I do is help people really understand basic information.
Yeah.
So, that they can apply it and all of a sudden they start getting better and then they come back for more.And then I can really help them and really teach them and really provide more knowledge to their process so that they can really excel.
Mama Jan explains how friction causes swelling, hoarseness, and eventually laryngitis. She covers what to do when a singer loses their voice, including vocal rest and the risks of anti-inflammatories and steroids.
Yeah, I I love the approach as far as just like you got to get the the foundation there.I mean, cuz anything more It's like you got to get 101 out of the way before we move up to the more advanced classes here, I feel like.And I And I can appreciate that cuz I'm sure people come in and be like, "Why the do I need to know how many vocal cords I have, Mama Jean?Just make me sing better.Like, what are we talking about?"
Yep.
Yeah, and that's just not it.
do.
Yeah.
I I I have had all kinds of reactions like that.
I bet.
And like I said, I meet people where they are and and my job is not to force anybody to do something they don't want to do.And especially to not scare them that they think I'm going to change and you're going to change my style.Like, that is not my goal
Mhm.
at all.
Mhm.
Do you want to change your style?Okay, then I can help you do that.But if that's not what you want to do, what is it you want to do?What do you need my help for?
Yeah.
And then when they tell you or then when we begin to uncover all that, it's like, "Okay, here we go."Give people Give people a few antidotes that that work for them and then they trust you.You build a relationship and then I can help them do all all of stuff.
Yeah.So, what's happening?I'm just so curious cuz I literally had this happen.I went to the Cameron Whitcomb concert at the Tabernacle and I was like belting his songs at like top of my lungs.
hoarse.
And I was hoarse and I And I And I And I had my little kids soccer game in the morning and I was yelling at 4-year-olds to get in a line.
Don't yell at 4-year-olds.
You know, yelling towards them, not at them, but you know what I mean?In the general direction.But and I and I actually struggle with this a lot, you know, I've played sports my whole life.You know, always like, you know, talking amongst teammates and like talking smack or whatever and I had a big problem with like losing my voice pretty regularly.
Yeah.Yeah.
What's the What's happening there?What's the science behind like getting a hoarse voice or losing your voice?
Okay.Remember what I said about um friction creates heat, heat creates swelling?
Okay.
Okay, right?
Yep.
So, um let me have your hand for a second.
Okay.
So, if I if I just rubbed your knuckle like this, right?Right now that doesn't hurt you, does it?
No.
If I sat here and did this for about an hour, what's going to start happening to the skin?
Probably get raw.
It's going to get red.It's going to get raw.It's going to swell up, right?And why is it going to do that?
Friction.
And friction creates heat and creates heat creates swelling and your body is is trying to protect itself.So, it's like what what what's going on here, right?Eventually, that that skin is literally going to burn and start to peel.
Oh my god.
Right?If I did it long enough, the friction is going to make that skin on your knuckle peel back.
Okay.
So, we've created a sore, right?
Yeah.
Okay.If you're doing that with your vocal cords, first of all, you haven't conditioned, you haven't warmed up, you don't know anything about that.You might be dehydrated, too.
I probably
And you're at a concert and you're drinking and you're doing all kinds of stuff, right?That is derogatory I'm just you know, presuming.
Yeah, I I had a lot of Coke I had a lot of Coke Zeros before, but
Oh, I'm good glad you said zero.Okay.So, um
I I used to have that, too.
Yeah, we all did, didn't we?Okay.Those were the days.
Me and me and my 20s, Mama Jan.
Yeah.Well, you weren't alive when I was 20, but that's okay.But, so
so yes, it was.Friction creates heat, heat creates swelling, and so when your vocal cords swell, if they're storing edema, the thicker they are, remember what I said about pitch?So, um you know what guitar strings look like?Yeah.You have six strings.The bottom string is the big fat string.It has the least amount of tension.The the top string is the thin one that has the most amount of tension, and it vibrates faster.Your vocal cords are like all six guitar strings rolled into two sitting side by side, all right?And they vibrate.So, as they vibrate like this, if they're thicker, they're more relaxed, and we have lower notes.So, somebody like Barry White, you know who Barry White was?
Very low voice.
His vocal cords were like tree trunks, okay?He had thick vocal cords, but he could never sound like Michael Jackson.
No.
Michael Jackson could never sound like Barry White, because Michael's vocal cords were probably thinner and had the propensity to pull thinner, right?That's why he could hit higher notes, but he was never going to have thick, fibrous vocal cords to hit low notes.Most people are kind of somewhere in the middle.So, if you're hoarse and you're screaming, and we've got friction happening, and your vocal cords start swelling up, right?Then as you try to make them go thinner, they're not going to go thinner if they're swollen.
Okay.
what hoarseness is.And if they continue to swell and swell shut, that's what laryngitis is.
Mhm.
Right?So, varying degrees of swelling will determine how flexible they can be, and how much we can change the density.How much they can thin out is going to determine your high notes.
And so, if a singer does start to lose their voice while they're like on tour, for example, you know, what are some of the remedies?
Shut up.
Well, no no silence.Literally silence, yeah.
It vocal rest.Vocal rest is the is one of the first things.Because if we can if we can, you know, give them an opportunity to do recuperate on their own, and the physical body is a is a an amazing healer.Yeah.So, if we if we give them that opportunity, okay, that's one thing.Anti-inflammatories, but the problem with anti-inflammatories, like taking ibuprofen and things like that, is if you're taking that while you're singing, you're thinning out the capillaries in the throat, which makes them prone to breach, which means you're going toblow a bleeder, then we have a whole different kind of issue.
That sounds bad.
It is bad.
Okay.
Okay?So, we don't want a hemorrhage, right?
no.
Um so, if you're taking anti-inflammatories, then we have to be on vocal rest.If you're taking steroids, which are serious anti-inflammatories, and they work.Um they're very strong.They're amazing.But, you're not supposed to be singing while you're doing steroids.Okay?For the same reason I just explained.
The hosts debate whether voice or song matters most, and Mama Jan argues that pitch is the foundation. She introduces her hierarchy of pitch, dynamics, tone, and technique as the building blocks of a strong performance.
Yeah.We singers do that all the time.They'll get a shot, prednisone or whatever, and then they feel better, and then they go and I got to I got to I got this gig, you know, tomorrow night.Like, okay, you're not supposed to do that.You're supposed to have 36 to 46 hours down.
Mhm.
But, okay.And they That's the vicious cycle of what happens with my artists on tour.
Wow.
Yeah, cuz they got they're doing two shows every 3 days trying to sing their hearts out, right?I mean, it just seems tough.
Yeah.
Yeah.Oh, man.So, you know, how important do you think the voice is and like vocals in general in comparison to like melody, lyrics, like you know, when it comes to a song, where do you and try not to be, youknow, biased go vocal coach here.I'm just like serious.Like, where where do you think it stacks up in importance of like the success of an artist?
It it starts with the song, obviously.It Is it a good song?You can have a a great song with a mediocre singer, and it's still a great song.
Mhm.
If you have a great singer singing a bad song,
Still bad.
good.Okay?So, I think it's a combination of really having a great song.
Yeah, it sounds like it's lower on the list than I would have thought you would have I thought you would have put it at like number one.I'm just going to be honest.
at number one?
Like the voice and the singing abilities.It might be more of like the overall like production, lyrics, etc.
for very long.
Okay, fair.
People are listening to Bob Dylan.
I didn't say that Bob Dylan sucks.
I true.
I I never said that.
your definition of some a sucky singer?
Okay, well, let me ask you this.If let's say the three of us we walk into we're going to a Mexican restaurant and there's a there's an artist there, male or female, who is doing their gig, right?And they're singing.
Mhm.
What is the first thing we're going to judge them on?
Their voice.
No, no.Be more specific.
Are they in key?
Uh okay.Pitch.
Yeah.
Pitch is on the bottom rung.If you can't hold a tune, we ain't going to be sitting here long listening to you.
Yeah.
Okay?
Yeah, that's true.
So, if somebody sucks they're singing out of tune.They're singing bad.They're singing bad because we said you need to sing in tune.
Yeah.
Now, if they sing in tune, what's the second thing we're going to kind of go Okay, that's all right.
Emotion for me probably.
Maybe like be have like believability kind of like passion maybe.
we start we start using those kinds of words, right?Now, what makes something sound emotional to you if you're listening to a singer?
Tone.
I'd say like
Tone.Hold up.
Okay.
Define that word for me.
Yeah, these are buzzwords.
Yeah.Um
Vocally.
Mhm, vocally.
Yeah.
Vocally speaking, what is what
There's like a roundness versus a thinness.There's a loudness versus a quietness.
Okay, so what you're really defining is the quality of sound.
I guess you could wrap it up in that.
Tone.Well, you just said round, thick, thin, you know, dark, light, you know, whatever.
Yeah.
talk
talk
You're talk about the quality of sound.
Yeah, I guess so.
So, tone is quality.So, quality of sound matters.
Yeah.
Okay?Is there anything between pitch and tone that you think matters?
Rhythm.
Okay, so rhythm is not really a vocal thing.It's It's a delivery.
Yeah, I say deliver
It's part of the delivery.I'm going to I'm going to save that for just a second.So, what I'm doing is I'm building a pyramid for you here.Do you all know who Maslow was?
I heard the name.
Okay, so Maslow was the guy that had this thing called the hierarchy of needs.
There you go.It's been a while, Mama Jan.
Mankind operates on a hierarchy of needs, right?And on the bottom rung of mankind's needs is what?
Air.
Uh-huh, food well, we got to live, right?
I would agree.
Food and shelter.
Yeah, food and shelter.
Maslow said other than the essentials of air, food and shelter, it and if that gets threatened,
Mhm.
all the other stuff that's on top of that falls down around that.
Okay.
We see that in natural disasters, right?So, if there's a hurricane, it don't matter how much money you got.It don't matter what kind of car you drive, what kind of, you know, glasses you have on, what kind of briefcase, what doesn't matter who you think you are.
Mhm.
Everybody the playing field is the same, right?So, for me, pitch is on the bottom rung for singers.This is my pyramid, okay?Pitch is first.Tone is number three to me.Okay?
Mama Jan explains how dynamics and tone shape emotional impact and why pitch remains the most important element. She describes how listeners judge singers first by pitch, then by volume and tonal quality.
Number two is a word called dynamics.
Yep.
What does that mean?
The difference between the loudest and the quietest.
I'm let the engineer speak.
Oh, well, man.
No, no, no, variation in volume.
Yep.Does my opinion not matter here, man?
Well, you interrupted me.
I She looked at me.I thought I was just taking a cue.God damn.
We'll hash it out later.
This is what happens when this is what happens when you do two episodes in a row.
This is two episodes in a row.I'm about to you know.It's the difference between the peak and the valley.It's in how much the variation there is.
It is variation, changes in volume, okay?Change in the volume why?Why would I Why would I choose that second to pitch?
Cuz it keeps it interesting.
Okay, tell me how.
Uh it was all
all Go ahead, yeah.
I think you can express more emotion.
Yeah, thank you for your
I don't want to do it twice.
I think you can express something differently when If you express something
It's just more expressive.I think you can communicate a message better.It's It's another dimension of engaging.
It's interesting to hear your definitions of this, right?And I do this example with people.I didn't bring my guitar, I'm sorry, but I but I do this for my clients so they can see and hear it.Human beings are born with and born with innate, right?I mean, we come into the world with a fear of two things.What are those?
Death and taxes.
Babies don't know.
Babies do not know about death or taxes.Okay?Try again.
Um
As a baby
Being alone.
know about
Monsters?
Babies do not know about monsters.
Darkness?
They don't know about darkness.
Food, no food?
Losing mama?
No, they don't know about losing
Jan, mama's Jan.
They don't know about
Yeah, what is it then?Pain?Like
Babies don't know about pain.They're afraid of two things.
Really?Yeah, okay.Now I have no idea.
Okay.So, the startle reflex.We all come into the world with that.Like being afraid of being dropped or of falling.If you and I were walking side by side down a sidewalk and you tripped, both of us are going to go like that because somehow we know innately, it's born in us, that could hurt you.
Wow, okay.
that.
That's called the startle
The startle reflex.
Reflex, yeah.
We're born with it.Little infants That's why we swaddle them up, right?Okay?
Yeah.Oh, I mean, they wake up.If they like if they're like elbow drops, my newborn, you know, I remember those days where it was like yeah.
You've seen it.
They would freak out.
So so that's the startle reflex.And we all come into the world with that.
Okay.
The second thing we come into the world with a fear of is loud noises.That's why we don't pick up little babies and go, "Hey!"
Then why do they cry so loud?
But think about this.If we're sitting here talking and we hear some explosion out there, we're This is over.We're going to see what that is.Why is that?
I guess cuz it's innate.Okay.
Because loud loud noises Yeah, or it could mean that.
That's what we That's what
There's there's something in nature like if if a if an elephant is in the jungle and they hear thunder clapping, they're going to take cover.
Yeah.
There's something about loud that tells us, "Hey, we need to some Let's Let's Let's check this out."
Dog hears a knock at the door, freaks out.
Yeah.So think about this.Changes in volume is one of the first ways you mentioned having a baby, right?Changes in volume is one of the first ways that we begin to communicate human emotion.It's one of the first things you look a little baby's face and go, "Hey, what are you doing?"You know, they're trying to figure it out, right?
we do that?Yeah.
They're trying to figure it out.And they don't know what you're saying cuz they don't speak English yet.But they're paying attention to the the difference in volume and pitch.Those two things
They're universal.
Absolutely.And they work hand in hand, but pitch usually comes first if we're going to judge somebody for hey, you suck, right?Volume is the second thing because what it does is it begins to convey emotion.And and I don't care how you feel when you're singing, I care how I feel when you're singing.So
if you make me feel something by being louder or softer, then I'm getting some type of emotional thing from what you're doing.Tone changes in the the resonance of the sound.Is it thin?Is it thick?Is it dark?Is it light?Does it sound like Barry White?Does it sound like Michael Jackson?Does it You know, is it raspy?Is it clear?Is it shrill?Is it nasal?Is it Bob?You know, does it have different types of tonality?We add that That's the crayon box.Okay?
What do you mean by that?
The the tone, the quality of sound.
Okay.
That's how you change, quote unquote, the color.
Okay.Okay.
And then the last thing on my pyramid is technique, which would have rhythm involved how you phrase something,
Delivery, etc.
and you put all that together, and that's what gives us your thumbprint, the star.
Okay, so and are they hierarchical to your point as far as like Maslow's pyramid?
Or or is it just what we notice?Do they all four have to be all
So, some people might come to me
Yeah.
and have great technical skill and incredible tone and sing out of tune.Well, we got to fix that.
Yeah.
Because it doesn't matter how good your your tone is, it doesn't matter how good your technique is, if if you sing a bad note notes, you're a bad singer.
Okay.
Right?So, people are going to judge you there.
Yeah.
I do think everything falls down around pitch.
Okay.
Because we said it's kind of foundational then.
Yeah, it's pretty important.
Yeah, we can't really adjust the other
Well, but there's leniency because we can tolerate variations on pitch.It doesn't have to be perfect.It can be an imperfect singer if it's not too far out of tune if you're cool with other things that I'm doing.
The discussion turns to imperfect singers, artistic character, and whether knowledge kills creativity. Mama Jan argues that understanding the rules helps artists and producers make better decisions without losing their individuality.
Give some examples of that.Like some famous examples of kind of like slightly you know, their pitch is not the most perfect, but it worked.Are there any that come to mind?
There's tons of that.
Okay.
People would think because I'm a vocal coach that I want to listen to perfect singing.I don't.
Okay.
I love character.
Yeah.
I'm not going to listen to somebody that's so far out of tune that I can't stand it, right?
Yeah.
But variations of that just we we were talking about Bob Dylan.In all seriousness, people who love his voice love his voice.
Yeah.
And I respect that.Do I want to listen to him long?No, because I don't like the tone and timbre of his sound.
Mhm.
It doesn't resonate well with me.I love Joni Mitchell.Some people can't stand her.
I love Joni.
I I'm a I grew up cutting, you know, my teeth on learning how to play chords like this until I found out she was using alternate tunings.I grew up on her music.As a young singer-songwriter, she was my greatest artist mentor, right?
So, there are other people who just like, "Oh my god, I can't stand her voice."I'm just like, "Oh, okay."You know.But I listen to all kinds of styles and all sounds.
I I There are very few singers that I would run screaming out of the room, you know, because they are so bad.
Cuz there's like a swag element that I just think about that some artists have that I could almost see like like okay, we interviewed a producer a long time ago on the pod on the podcast.His name is Mexiko Dro.
Okay.
Knows no theory.
Okay.
He said, "I can't play A, B, C.I don't know nothing."
Right.
But he opens this old HP laptop and just like expresses himself.
Yeah.
And it really connected with people and he created a whole subgenre, a whole sound in hip-hop that blew up and he has like cult fans that just love
Yeah.
his stuff.
like our biggest one.
And I just can't help but think like if we gave him a production coach, if we taught sat here and taught him music theory on a piano that he would have no swag left.
I I I want to respectfully disagree with you on this.
That's why I want that.Yeah.
But here's why.So, let's take that same producer, okay, that you talk about and I've gotten phone calls, literally, from producers who make amazing music and go, "Mama Jan, what's Usher's key?"Um "For what song?""Uh any song."Well, Usher doesn't have a key.
Okay, well, that's bad.
But that would be some Mexican drug though.
Maybe.
Usher has a range.Usher has a range and depending on where the song is is going to determine the key of the song and what key Usher needs to do it in.Now, more producers should know those things if they're writing songs or or or recording songs."Oh, you're going to kill the vibe if you change the key."There ain't no vibe without the singer.So, if the singer can't vibe, unless you're doing instrumental stuff,
Yeah.
so unless the singer can sing it in their key, and if you're putting it in the key of the demo singer, I let me just say this.Beyoncé doesn't care what key the demo singer did the song in.If you did it in the key of B and she wants it in the key of E flat, you're going to do the song in E flat.Hell, yeah.I don't care if the producer thinks you're going to kill the vibe or not because you ain't going to kill Beyoncé having it in her key.Celine Dion doesn't do songs in in a key that's good for Beyoncé.Usher doesn't do his songs in keys that are good for Chris Brown.Chris does songs that are in good keys for him and that's what producers need to understand.Just because you have a demo and it's in the key of F sharp because it's the saddest key of all, that that No.
If Usher needs it in the key of E flat, we're going to put it in E flat.
Mhm.Can't it maybe lose some of its soul if you do that?I mean
If Usher sings it, it's going to lose soul.Get out of the room.
Thank you, Mama Jan.I I think the music is half the song.So, yeah, if I think if you kill the soul of half the song, I think that's at risk of killing the song, personally.
The you talking about the production?
The production.
Okay.So, let's take the production away and let's have Usher sing.Is it still a good song?
I don't know.
Okay.I understand what you're saying and I understand where you're coming from and I'm a producer.So, I appreciate um the production value.I also think that if I'm a good enough producer, I ain't going to lose my swag because Usher wants to move my key.Okay?
That's what I'm talking about.Do you hear how confident that was?
Yeah.
There's no swag lost, bro, by key changing.
But if Yeah, I guess I don't know.If you don't let If you don't think it's has the same soul or you just slow the tempo down cuz they wanted to slow the tempo down, it's like it's kind of a business compromise at that point.You're settling for a big name, right?And maybe that's okay if you're trying to grow a business, but
Or I could buy a house.
Yeah, sure.I I'd love to buy a house.Yes.And And if you want to do that, there's no shade if you want to do that.I'm just thinking artistically.
Check this out, okay?
Check it.
The rest of the world has not heard that song yet.
Correct.
does it really have?Now, if you want to stay in your basement and and swag all day long, then swag all day long.If you're putting it in front of the public, if you're going to put it in front of people, then we become commercial.Then we begin to Okay, why are you doing this?Are you doing it to be artistic?Okay, I I great respect.No shade.Whatsoever.Right?You If you want to argue the point that this song is going to go down in history in the key of G, I'm with you.If somebody over here with a major tour and 2.8 million on the table for you and you're going to argue the key of G, I'm probably going to think that you're pretty stupid.
Right?
Yeah.
For holding out
Yeah.
on the that because you can write as many other songs as you want to in the key of G.Give them that one for 2.8, dude.Okay.
If you want to die on the hill of the key of G, by all means do it.I just I understand people have like some flaws and some stuff they don't understand and I think it like it makes them cool a lot of times and I'm just I'm fascinated by this genuinely and I just Icould see a world where like everyone trained and became became perfect piano players and perfect vocalists it might sound the same.
I I didn't talk I my my goal is not perfection.My goal is excellence.
Ooh, I like that.That's good.Yeah.
And who is this gentleman that you talked about the
His name is Mexico Dro.
I would love to talk to him anytime.
I'd love for y'all to talk.
I would I would love to talk to him.I would I would love to talk to him.Not for the sake of perfection, but for the sake of knowledge.Knowledge is power, I'll say that again, and the application of that makes you more successful.Nobody loves stupid.Nobody.Uh
See, but I we've had we've had a couple
know.Like I'm not all the way with you here.
We've had a couple people on here.
okay.I I rest.Yes, some people do love stupid.
Well, no, hold on.Let me let me explain let me explain what I think you're going to.We've had a couple people on here, can't remember who, but we have tended to have people that operate at the highest level, just like you.Maybe not the guy like you, but not always the guy.Okay, and the way someone explained it and one of y'all you know, die hard stack check me who said this, but basically they feared that like should they know all the things about the theory and the keys andwhatever, that it if there's so many rules in their mind, if they know all the rules, like the you know, theory rules, etc., that they might not challenge them as much.They might not break them as much.And sometimes in their experience it was like breaking the rules is sometimes what comes what like something great comes from that.
That's like how I was explaining it.
And something that it makes them stand out, it makes them different, it makes people connect because it's like an identifiable sound.It's interesting.
I didn't break rules.In in teaching people how to sing the way that I do like any purist vocal coach, they don't even recognize what I do is legitimate as a legitimate art form because they're purist.And I respect that.They're classical purist.Opera and pedagogy they they're like "Ugh."
Okay, so they strive for perfection.
Oh, they don't they don't even want to talk to me.
Oh, really?
No, no, no.
Are you like a black sheep in the vocal coach community?
Pretty dark, yeah.Yeah, pretty dark.Oh, yeah.And the but the the the reason why
to me.
know that.Because they're because they're classical purist and I respect that.I came from that background.So I was like I and I and I love it.It's like go forth and multiply.Do you.That's great.I understand the protection of that art form as being pure and they strive for homogeneity and perfection.Great and they're they're amazing at what they do.That is not what I'm striving for.I'm okay.I'm striving for excellence and helping individual artist be excellent at what they do.So in my estimation, I don't want to take away from somebody's vibe.I want to add knowledge to their vibe so they can do more with what they have.How cool would it be if he actually understood what the heck he was doing?
knowledge might kill his vibe, Mama Jan.
I I you may be right.I may be crazy.
I don't know.I just like yeah, I don't know.Why did I hear that in Billy Joel's voice?
He may be right.
No, no.I understand the fear of that.And so sometimes people remain stupid for the wrong reasons.I don't know if he's really truly that gifted, talented, cool, and has vibe, what about knowing more is going to
Yeah, I'm with mom and dad now.
make him
he understood what he was actually doing, like if he could dissect what he's already been making that he loves so much and that everyone loves so much, I think it maybe unlocks even more doors, bro.I don't know.I kind of like
I think I think for sure his sound would change.Whether people would still like it or it would become more excellent, I don't know.
But it might His sound may not change.
not have to change.
He may
it would.Maybe he could do more of it easier.
He's He's not thinking about the He's not thinking about the what key he's in right now.He's pressing a note and just in his head does this sound good to me?
But there's something beautiful about that.
He doesn't have to think about what key he's in.
I think the knowledge would cause him to think about that.
think so.I think that he would still
I've experienced this like myself.
I would hope that he would still just create the way he creates.
Yeah.
But if Beyoncé is going to sing the song, they're going to change the key.
But you see what I'm saying?
Yeah.
And not being willing to do that is stupidity.That's That's where it's like, okay, wait a minute.No, let's let's let you create, be different, break the rules.I'm okay.But how can you know you're breaking the rules if you don't know what the dagum rules are, right?I'm just saying let's add some knowledge to people so that they don't call me and ask me what is Usher's key.I'm like, what do you
Yeah, that makes sense.
play the song?
That is a crazy question.
no.Actually, it's not.It's a real question from people who don't know better.I want my I want my people.I want artists.I want producers.I want engineers.The people who are sitting there behind the glass doing what they're doing, I want them to know.I want them to understand.
Mama Jan shares the origin of her nickname and tells stories about working with Usher and Justin Bieber. She explains how she helped them through vocal changes, touring demands, and the pressures of early fame.
When you're talking to a singer, when I walk into a room and I I get what the engineers worked 10 hours to try to get and I do it in 3 minutes, then they're like, "Oh my god, you'reamazing."I'm like, "No, I'm not.I just know more than you do."
I studied.I I studied.
I just want to help you.
Yeah.Here, here's how you talk to a singer.This is how you get them to do what you're asking them to do so that you have a better record.Yeah.Deliverables.
I'm with I'm with MJ, bro.
Cool.
Hey, hey, I actually meant to like ask this earlier.Where where does Mama Jan come from again?What what was the origin story of uh
Okay.
Yeah.Cuz there's some rumors I feel like out there on where
What have you heard?
No, I was kind of kidding.
name off a bathroom wall or something?
Hey, well, one thing I know is that Mama's babies saying it everywhere.
Everywhere everywhere.It's a w h u r.
I'm from the South, actually.
Yeah, so we know that much, but we don't necessarily know exactly where it came from.
So when I when I was in the early stages of, you know, doing Jan Smith of the rock vocal coach
Yeah, yeah.
Um I was working with a young man named John Hopkins.
Okay.
And uh
The uh doctor?
I spoke with a guy I spoke with a guy with a guy named Johnny Hopkins.
No, no, no.
Is that a hospital?Yeah, but
We're talking about John Hopkins of the Zac Brown Band.
Okay.
Okay.
used to he he was his own artist at point, you know.
Okay.
And um there was another artist named Jeffrey Butts who they were coming in every week.And um that's the same time that Usher started coming in when he was 17.And I was working with him.And so the guys, they would be there before Usher was there and John would be leaving or or Jeffrey before him.And they would say, "We'll see you next week, Mama."And they would just say, you know, "Mama, hey, okay."
It was just Mama Jan.
Yep.And um So John Hopkins takes pretty furious offense if I say that Usher is the one who Usher Usher coined me that in a national interview that he did.And so that's why he is credited with calling me Mama Jan first cuz he did publicly.
But we know the real Thomas Edison, Nikola Tesla type of vibe.
it is.
Okay.But we know
John Hopkins and Jeffrey Butts were the real real.
Cool.Shout out to John and Jeffrey.
That's on record now.
So, I I do want to get a little bit into, you know, Usher and like Justin Bieber cuz I know those are two like of the 10,000, you know, clients that have like worked through the Jan Smith uh
big ones, yeah.
Yeah, two pretty big ones.
I've heard of them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, walk me through kind of like where each of them were at in their like vocal stages or whatever and their artistry, right?And then kind of like how you worked with them specifically cuz I know every case is kind of like individual case basis, right?
They It is, but they they were kind of the same.So, so Usher Usher was He was almost 18.He was 17 when he came in.So, his mother called and Usher went through puberty as far as vocal changes.He He His voice changed late, which happens sometimes.
He's a late bloomer.
He He was a late bloomer, vocally speaking.
made fun of.It's fine.
So, some sometimes guys' voices change around 11 or 12.Sometimes they change around 15, 16, right there, right?So, Usher was already signed as an artist when he was 14.He already had a deal.He He was already making records.He was already signed to LaFace doing tours.And in the middle of that, his voice started to shift and change, and he had this a real big gap between his chest voice and his falsetto.But he used his falsetto because he was a singer.Most guys just abandon that when they're when they go through puberty.Well, he couldn't afford to do that cuz that was part of his identity as a singer.So, my job Yeah, yeah, of course.And my job was to help him get through puberty and close up that gap between his chest voice and his falsetto and then strengthen that back up.
And we did that uh right after Pop Ya Collar and My World and all that, and we did 8701.I did a lot of work with him there.And then after 8701, I had about 3 or 4 months of really good solid intellectual time with him where I talked with him about um theory, intervals, riffs and runs, and hitting the right notes.He was always fast, but he wasn't always accurate.And then he was fast and accurate and then we cut Confessions, which is the biggest record of his entire career.
So good.
It's like the benchmark, right?
And I'm real proud of him for the work that he did to to make that album be what it is.Jermaine and Jimmy and and Terry and all the all the the people that contributed to that, but the greatest thing was watching Usher really get it.And every everybody sat up and went, "What'd you do?What happened?"And I'm like, I was so proud because that was part of my work with him, right?
Yeah.
And I just did five five days of tour prep with him and Chris prior to the kickoff of the the tour that they're on now.
Oh, wow.
Um so so I see Usher now when whenever he calls, whenever he wants me to see him, but he also brought one of his sons, Naveid, in for lessons, which was kind of cool to see the round robin.
Yeah, because when I started working with Usher, Naveid was not here yet, right?So that's kind of cool.So then the relationship
Yeah.
between Usher as he was working in Jermaine Dupri's studio, well, Scooter Braun was working there as an intern and a party promoter with with Georgia State with JD, and Usher and Scooter became best friends.And then when Scooter was shopping Justin Bieber, who he found, uh and wanted and did management on, they brought him to me for development because it you know, Scooter took that through Usher.Usher took it to LA.LA knows me because of my work with Usher.And so the relational part of that means a lot to me.
Yeah.
But, you know, obviously Scooter said, "We want him to be, you know, really develop the right way."Scooter was trying to do the right thing.I think LA was they were really trying to do artist development and to mature him.Justin had never been in a studio.So helping him vocally to to, you know, measure up to what was about to happen, and then and nobody really knew everything that was going to happen.
Yeah.But there was some idea some idea.
Well, I mean the planning the hope the hope is always for that, but you never I mean the public has to really be receptive.The time was right, you know, the the the timing in history, you know, supporting that.Then we had Twitter and all the stuff that happened at the same time.But my my job with Justin was he was going through puberty.I mean that's what the whole movie was about was his voice he was losing his voice because he was going through puberty.So my job was to keep his voice up for the demands of what we were doing on the road.
And so what did that look like in practice?Some of the things we we know we kind of already covered as far as like vocal rest and
Well And
warm-ups, cool-downs, all those things.
and then and then you you know, the difference in those two artists is you have you know, Usher who was already signed
Yeah.
as an artist and who had already you know, been in the studios and the rigors of the road that kind of thing and Justin who was a kid who had never done any of that who had no noidea.
Yeah, how old was he at that point?
I met Justin
16
Who?Justin or Usher?
Justin
no.Justin No, no, I met him when he was like uh uh He was 12.
Oh wow.And that tour was that movie at that
And that tour was how old was he?He was 14.
As the lead dancer
he was 14.
Wow.
Um so there was a couple of years there, right?Of you know, recording development and also because the industry did not want to accept him because he was a kid.The rest of the world wanted to accept him and everyone was like this bull-cut Canadian.Well, yeah, but you have to understand how radio they were like radio get out of here.
They were gatekeeping.
Oh, absolutely and he was a kid.
Yeah.
And nobody got it.Burt did Burt in Atlanta did and was very supportive, but most radio they were just like I mean Scooter had a harder time than people think.Um
Yeah, we just see him like water skiing with Sydney Sweeney now and we're like, "Yeah, how hard could it have been?"
He never makes He never misses.Clearly, right?
I mean, he's Yeah.
Scooter's very He's a very He's a brilliant marketer.
Mhm.
Um he he um you know, his his business skills are off the chain.And you know, people can say what they want to about liking him or not liking him.That's not my business, but but in terms of strategically what he was able to accomplish in the industry, not just with Bieber, but with other artists he worked with was was pretty is pretty, you know, he he setsome pretty high bars for people.But so, with Justin, it was about this is a kid who didn't know anything about the industry at all.And being on a stage and all of a sudden you're going from a a small town in Scranton to being in front of 20,000 people who are screaming at you
Yeah.
your songs and loving you.It's like, wow.The impact of that.And he And he was a kid.He was He was an He was an adolescent.He was growing up.His body was changing.His voice was changing.He's going through all of that in in everybody's eyeballs.And he was, you know, backstage screaming, losing I mean, he was losing his voice.
Yeah.
So, it was a delicate balance of being trying to be the reason reasoning with him.Okay, we need to be quiet now.We have to You can't We don't need to eat that tonight.Let's Let's don't don't Let's don't do that hamburger.Let's don't You know, trying to help him understand how to take care of himself, which he's doing a much better job of now, you know?And And has has, you know, kind of full circle has really I'm I'm just so proud of him.
I really liked the Coachella he did the YouTube thing.That was so cool.I just loved that idea.That whole performance felt very like real.
It was very real.And I think it was also very him reconnecting with his fans.And I I just am so proud that he has maintained now he's calling his own shots and he has maintained his authenticity in what he's doing and very supportive of him and and love him tremendously as I doUsher and I don't always love what my artists do or how they do it, but I love them and my relationship with people is what matters to me most.
In the final segment, Mama Jan plays a game deciding whether singers should perform or rest in difficult medical scenarios. The episode closes with her philosophy on protecting artists, valuing their voices, and the realities of touring pressure.
Yeah.Mama Jan, we've entered the final segment of the podcast.Holy
Boy, that's exactly
what I thought it was going to be and then
Boo
I'm glad
Mama Jan, thank you.
We're having a final segment.
We haven't even done the best segment yet.It's the final segment.Mama Jan, I customize these now
Oh, I'm ready.
for each guest.I love that by the way.I think I'm going to keep doing it.I like it, too.I'm having a lot of fun with it.
to Henry.
What's about to happen?
We don't know.It's this fun little game we're going to play.
Okay.
Call it so it's the boss level, if you will.
I'm ready.
Your game J is called doctor's orders.
Okay.
So you've said before the show must go on can be a dangerous idea sometimes, right?Tonight we're going to find out for real.So I've got seven
Well, let me get through it.I got seven container excitement.I'm glad you're excited.I have seven real singers all at the exact moment their voice is in trouble and there's a show they really can't afford to miss, okay?For each patient, let's call them, you are going to decide play or pause.Should they go on?Should they not go on?And walk us through your thinking just couple maybe couple sentences on why you decide that.Here's the twist.Out of seven patients, you only get two pauses.And once you hit two pauses, we'll let you do one trade.If you want to trade out and swap a pause, but only two pauses total.So you have to consider each case knowing there's seven of them.Does that make sense?
Seven artists, I can put two of them on wrist and the other five have to go.
Once you've hit two rests, two pauses, you'll you'll activate your trade.If you another one's like, oh my god, they really
Okay, but I
get to hear all seven before I make any decisions.
Absolutely not.That's the fun part.One at a time.So you got to do your best.
Okay.
Sounds good.
I mean I don't like the rules.
Good.I think that might make it interesting.
don't like the rules of life Mama June and here I am.
They're supposed to make it difficult.
So I can break the rules then, right?
No, I wouldn't go that far.
She's like well Mexico drove
but I am the gun.
You are the gun.
Yeah, that is true.
Okay, fine.What rules do you like Mama June?
Let's let's
I want to hear all seven of them before I make a decision about pause or trade.That's
But then but then you'd be able to decide.That's the fun of like it's like you've seen blind ranking on social media cuz like they then the next one comes up and you're like oh man I would have done that different.That's kind of the fun of it, right?
All right, I got you.I'm going to hit me.
Patient number one.
Pause.
All right, go ahead.
Patient number one.
Yeah.
We have a 29 year old who is the biggest artist in rap right now.They have a horse voice and a vocal cord that feels a little bruised.Tonight they are headlining a two hour show in their hometown and in four days they're headlining a festival overseas.Play or pause.
Play.
He's playing.
Patient one is a play.That was Nicki Minaj in August 2012 2012.She played her hometown show in New York against doctor's orders as it turns out.Her voice got worse and she did end up having to pull out of the festival.
Oh no, how much money she lose?
I don't know, but I do know her replacement was LMFAO.
Oh wow.It's a downgrade.
that's we'll see though.That might be a that might be a great play.
You have a rapper number one.Rappers blow their throats out every night.So that was not unusual.And then but but then we had four days in between.So with the four days rehab in between vocals down would they have their vocals down enough to be able to do the next stint?Didn't know, but I was going to wait to hear the other six to see if I was going to do a trade on number one.She's good because had you come to me just with that one, I would have pulled them.
I have I'm assuming a lot of these you would pull.That's why I'm only allowing two.
Yeah, I would have pulled them from that first show so that they could make the the second show.
The festival, yeah.
I would have always weighed weighed that out, yeah.
That makes sense.
Yeah, yeah.Okay.Sounds good.Yep, okay.
Okay, we'll make sure to get the analysis.
one of my clients, so go ahead.
Oh, I didn't know that.Wow.
Wow, very interesting.
Yeah, she probably was on the long list in the intro.
Clearly they didn't consult they didn't consult me about that one.
Patient number two, this is a 34-year-old singer-songwriter who had surgery five months ago to remove a growth on their vocal cords.They did the month of total silence, they followed every instruction.Their new album comes out in 10 weeks and the tour is how it's going to sell, but when rehearsals starts, the growth came back.Play or pause?
A month of silence.
That's a hard pause?The month of silence is is a real thing, by the way.Let's get the analysis on the pause here.
If the anything growth, when you're saying growth comes back, no no no, we don't we don't play with that.We don't play with growths.I don't care who it is, I don't care what's on the table because you're talking that could be life-threatening, that could be cancer, that could be, you know, any other number of whatevers.
Yeah, you're talking about a vocal growth?
Mhm.
Yeah, I would have I would have paused.
I think that's a good pause.This was John Mayer in March also in 2020 2012.He canceled his whole tour, got a second surgery, got Botox shots to freeze his vocal cords so they could heal.He went through months without talking, he communicated through an iPad, and in his words, "Nothing feels worse than having to break down the stage before the performance."
Wow.
Yeah.
Yep, yep.
Got silence for months.
Months.
That's insane.
My blabber ass could never do it.
Maybe just try it.Like before there's a growth.You could you could do a week.Anyway.
God.
Okay.
That's one pause out of two patients.So we got five more.So patient number three.This is a 39-year-old superstar near the end of a 26-show run, full orchestra on stage, playing 3 and 1/2 hours a night.
Yeah, well that's wrong.3 and 1/2 3 and 1/2 hours a night, no.But we wouldn't do that anyway, but go ahead.
Oh, interesting.Like just because that's a too much on the voice you're saying.Yeah.
play.90 minute show.
Yeah.
Hour and a half max.3 and 1/2 hours of stupid stupidity anyway, but go ahead.
Interesting.Off real.Their throat is absolutely killing them, which follows.
No Sherlock.
They've already had to drop a show.And um privately they're even worried that it might be cancer.And there's one show left.It's the finale and it's being recorded for a live album.
Yeah.
Play or pause?
Do the show.
Got to do it.
Do the show, go.Yeah, then go to the doctor, yeah.
Then go to the doctor.And then no more 3 and 1/2 hours.
See, I'd have to I have to also say, okay, why were you doing 3 and 1/2 hour shows?And that's stupid.So if you're going to be that stupid, just do the last show, go.
Well, do it.
But but I there there's some you know, that would have been my my judgment prior to them doing a 3 and 1/2 hour show.
Yeah.Yeah.
Okay.
This was a little back in the day.I think times have changed a little bit.This was Elton John in Australia 1986.
Yep.
He played the finale and that night did become his live in Australia album.A few weeks later he had throat surgery in Sydney.It was not cancer.He but he wasn't allowed to talk.He was writing notes, passing them.
Yeah.
His next tour was canceled.His voice came back lower.His falsetto never returned.
he had vocal damage.That's right, yeah.
That's right.Okay.
Oh my god, this is so fun.I didn't know I didn't know how big of a deal this was.
so many examples of this.When I did my research I was like, "Whoa, this is great."
I didn't understand.
Patient number four.We got a 23-year-old singer who had vocal cord surgery 3 months ago.Then went 5 weeks
How How old?
23.
Okay.
Three months ago vocal cord surgery then went five weeks silent.Haven't sung in public since.Their first performance back would be on live TV at the biggest music night of the year.In case you guys maybe have an idea what that is with the whole industry in the room and they're actually nominated
for six Grammys.
six awards.
I didn't reveal what it was.
Nominated for six awards.
Do the show.
Do the show.
Yeah.Hopefully they had a chance to work with a if they had you know surgery then they would have had some rehab in between that and they would have had a chance to get back up and and if they'reon the Grammys or something like that they're only going to sing one song.So.
Well, there you go.Yeah, that's a good point.
Good point.
This was Adele at the 2012 Grammys.She sang Rolling in the Deep live, got a standing ovation, won all six awards by the way.
You were there?
I was there.
Was it amazing?
Yes.
She sounded great?
Yeah.
Okay.
The the real thing was prior to that she had a hemorrhage in her vocal cords four months before that and had to cancel a whole tour.
Yeah, which is the thing I when I say blow a bleeder.
That was it.
That she blew a bleeder.That's an internal bleeding.
That's that's a hemorrhage on the vocal cord.
Yeah.
Do you like feel that?
it felt like someone put a curtain over her throat.
You you know it immediately.
Oh.
Yeah.
Sounds horrible.
I don't even really know how to conceptualize that.
It doesn't hurt per se, but you know it if you're a singer or vocalist you know it immediately.Something drastically changes in in your vocal tone and your vocal ability like in in a second.
Yeah.Has it happened to you?
A hemorrhage?
Yeah.
I mean I had a hemorrhage from coughing.Yes.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, when I had pneumonia I had a hemorrhage.
So not even singing related.
Oh, you can you can have it from clearing your throat.Yeah, or coughing too hard or something.Clearing your throat often.Yeah.
What?And does it just repair on its own or
It can.It can sometimes they have to be cauterized.Um sometimes you have to go to the doctor really quick.
God.
Yeah.Wow.
Patient number five, we have a 75 year old lead singer on their farewell tour.
Okay.
Three shows in, their voice is damaged.The doctors have requested 30 days of rest.The fans bought these tickets to say goodbye, and at 75, nobody knows how many shows that voice might have left.
god, why are you looking at me?
Play or pause?
You said the doctors
recommended 30 days of rest.Pause.Let's get the doctor's orders.What What's the analysis here?
Well, because the doctors have already He's already seen the doctor.She
She already has doctor's orders.
He or she.
She's just enforcing the doctor's orders.
I would I would yield to the doctor's orders, but you know, and doctors a lot of times they're going to look to me for what do you think?And I'm like, "Uh uh."Um I'm looking at age.I'm looking at already in trouble.We can reschedule that show, even though that's a it's a nightmare to do that, but I'm famous for having pulled the plug on the New York State Fair show, 17,000 people.Um and they rescheduled it because we had Madison Square Gardens to do the next weekend.And that was the bigger movie shoot, so there you go.
Is that Bieber as well?Oh, wow.
Yep.
You were famous for canceling the New York State Fair.
Well, if you ever watch the movie, you'll see that they put it on me to tell him that we were going to do that, and I also had to deal with the you know, this is what we're doing.This is what the doctor said.The doctor said we need to do steroids, and I need 36 hours down.They're like, "Well, we don't have 36 hours."I said, "You do now."
Wow.
giving him steroids.
I'm going to rewatch this movie.I feel like I watched it before, but I didn't have it like with the Mama Jan context, you know what I mean?I had context.
that.Now that's So, I've had my two pauses, but now we're on number seven.
Next is six.
Number six, okay.
got to reveal number five.It's kind of sad.Mick Jagger?No.This is Steven Tyler of Aerosmith in September 2023.Turned out to be a fractured larynx.They postponed and 11 months later Aerosmith retired from touring for good saying full recovery would not be possible and the Yeah, the tour never finished.
Mhm.
So, very sad there, but that is two pauses, but you do have a trade available.
Okay, yep.
If you would like to use it.Two Two patients left.
Yep, okay.
Patient number six is a 29-year-old singer wrapping up a 15-month world tour with four stadium shows in their hometown.Huge.100,000 people.They've sung the first two shows out of the four and kind of struggled both times.And this morning their voice will not even open up.They're considering lip-syncing the final two shows.
Oh, boo.
Player pause.
Play.
What would you think about the lip-syncing?Would you recommend that?
they're going to do anyway.I said play, go.It's the money, honey.Go.
It's a lot of money.Stadium.
Wow.
Thousands.
So, you're
it.
say that I liked it, though.
Okay, yeah.
to do it.
Acceptance doesn't mean approval.
That's correct.
Yeah.
Fair enough.
This was Adele again at the Wembley Stadium in London, June 2017.Her doctor found damaged vocal cords, so she canceled the last two nights and refused to lip-sync saying it wouldn't be the real me up there.
And you know what?And good for her that she did that cuz that's how That's That's what should happen.
Yeah.
That's the real real of a of an artist who refuses to yield to that.So, thank you, Adele.
Shout out to Adele, man.
I know she had so many problems with her voice.I mean, I guess that makes sense.
a voice like that.
Lots of them do.
Yeah.
Lots of things you don't hear about.
No, seriously, this is eye-opening.
Patient number seven, this is our final patient.Should be an interesting one.We have a 16-year-old with the number one album in the middle of a tour while their voice is changing through puberty.They just got back from a weekend at home roughhousing with their friends and now their vocal cords are swollen.Tonight's show has 17,000 tickets sold and in two days they play the biggest arena show of their career which is being filmed for a movie.Play or pause?
Well, clearly
I'm in the movie.What are you talking about now?So so
Any any regrets there about that decision?
No.
Okay.
Oh, absolutely not.
Okay, I'm just asking damn mama.
Um
so so the two So Nicki, the first one that you mentioned and also the second Adele one.The one that we just went through.Those are the two that I would
would have to trade.
Maybe so.Uh or or I would have paused All of these that you're talking about would have been pauses.
Yeah.
I had a feeling it.
They they all would be and and the reason why is because I I did I I I was involved in pulling that plug.And also explaining to them we need to cancel this show now so that we're okay for the Madison Square Garden show if we're going to do steroids for a 14-year-old.
Mhm.
Yeah, his age has played a factor obviously.
Steroids played a factor.
Okay.
They do.
They do that.
And I'm and I'm cautious that way with any of my artists.So mentioning the lip syncing thing, the truth of the matter is there are times where artists are expected to perform when they literally have no voice.Having backup tracks, we have those on every show now.Because sometimes if somebody, you know, they can't hit the high note or whatever, we're going to there there's a an engineer that's going to punch in.
Yeah.
We're going to have those we're going to have those tracks so that the show can go on.It is amazing to me that people expect singers night after night that the or I really shouldn't say people, the fans
No, I do expect.I've until this episode, I would have expected it.You get up on stage and you sing for me.Like that I'm serious, dude.Like I mean as a fan
Could tell you.
As a fan, that's what we
As a fan, you should expect that.As as a manager and as a label and as a tour planner that is they do unrealistic things.They put unrealistic expectations
Yeah, on the talent.
on the talent and they don't spend the money to bring them to people like me
Yeah.
ahead of time to prep them for the tour so that they are better prepared to handle that.
Yep.
And that's and then they call me.
Yeah.
They call me to come be Annie Sullivan.
There's no preventative medicine.
No, I I mean I put Band-Aids on dams all the time.I mean that's that's what I do.
That's perfect analogy.
But it is it is it is what I have to do in those circumstances and I tell them all the time, you know, this is going to this is this dam's going to break.
Yeah.
It's a matter of when, not if.And if if you want to, you know, keep this from happening, then you need to you should have brought them to me 3 months ago.
Mhm.
Not a week before they're leaving on the biggest tour of their lives.I'm like, what are you What are you doing?
Yeah.
Nobody would ever Let me ask you a question.Last thing, right?LeBron James
Yeah.
Steph Curry, who?Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan.They pull their ACL.What are we going to do?
Rehab it.
We're going to bench them for the rest of the season.
yeah, they're out for the season.
Because they're that valuable.
Yeah.
We're going to We're not going to like put ice on it and say get back out there and finish the game.
Unless it's the playoffs, maybe.
No.No.
No, cuz you want them next year.
We're going to bench them for the rest of the season.
Yep.
Because why?
Cuz you want them next year.
Because they're valuable.
Yes.
What are we really saying?Get out there and finish the say you push through.You know we can do this.You're not valued.You're not valued enough Adele by saying no by saying no.Valued herself enough in that situation and she was powerful enough to be able to do that.And lost a lot of money.
Yeah.Yeah.
And probably had a couple of suits about insurances and everything else, okay?That shouldn't be the case, but it is and that's the reality that artists live against and that's the pressure that they're under constantly.
Yeah.
It's not right.It's not good, but it's real.
Yeah, there's so much pressure of like tour economics to route it so tightly and every minute is full and right?
even make the most of that money.
No, exactly.
They don't even make the most of that money.
Yeah, for sure.Well, Mama Jan, this has been one of I mean literally one of my favorite episodes for sure.So unique.
Seriously.So unique.Thank you for coming on the podcast.
tell the truth.How long did it take us to finally get here?
Over a long time.
Over a year?
Not because we didn't want to do it.
we've been planning this since 2023, folks.
And we are here each and every week.Until next time, Henry, what are we doing?
Getting out of here.
Getting out of here.Peace, y'all.Bye-bye.