Transcript
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The speaker explains the shortcomings of conventional street lighting calculations and introduces TaMaN's ability to significantly reduce required luminous flux in pilot projects.
We actually do not have the tools to do the street lighting properly.We are limited to product.We first manufacture the product and then, you know, we calculate, recalculate, and we only calculate on the horizontal surface of the of the road.You know, we comply with the norm, but we don't care what happens beyond the surface of the road.And that's when I realized that we have a problem.Why can't I do something about that?And I didn't even know if it's possible.The Pacific Northwest National Laboratory is currently testing TaMaN in Seattle, and they came to uh pretty much the same results as we are on our pilot projects, where we can reduce the luminous flux over 40% in the samearea, on the same street.And then when we at TaMaN do the calculation automatically, we reduced 45% the the required luminous flux on the same project, on the same street, by the same norms, same category of the norms.
In any any pilot that we tried, we always have an enormous reduction of light required for the particular area that that you're doing.
Dean is introduced and рассказывает how he moved from programming in Croatia to studying in New York, then returned home and built his lighting design practice.
Dean, welcome to Light Talk.Good to see you.
Thank you for inviting me.
My pleasure.Um I wanted to dive into a TaMaN a bit and understand how your your the tool that you have developed works.But before we get there, um I would like to uh look a little bit into the history of you as a person.Uh I understand that you you started like 35 years ago or something, and that uh you you studied in in New York.And you have done projects in architecture, urban lighting.You've done installations and are doing a design.Um but uh maybe you can just tell me and take me back.What What did a young man from Croatia do in New York?How did you end up in New York to start your studies?
I'm going to write a book about that.
Yeah.
Well, I was working as a computer programmer for a local you know, energy energy distribution company, you know.
Mhm.
Electricity distribution company.
Yeah.
And for 2 years
Uh-huh.
I was working on a software that would uh automatically uh optimize uh the um maintenance of the uh high-power uh infrastructure, you know.And when I was done, uh nobody wanted to look at it because uh you know, uh you know, workers uh are used to you know, come in in the morning, have their coffee, and then maybe go home anddo some work in their uh gardens, and so on.So, this software put them in control, you know, what they have to do.So, it was completely uh unacceptable at the time in ex-Yugoslavia in the socialist system, you know.And so I realized there's nothing for me here, so I left and I I went to New York, and uh you know, the destiny put me in the lighting, which is another very funny story.And then I uh enrolled in FIT, studied interior design, because that was the only uh university at the time that had courses in lighting.
And they had a lighting lab, and the professors were actually lighting professionals with minimum of 10 years experience in uh private business.So, they know what they were talking about, you know.And that's how it started, you know.And then uh the war broke out in uh here.And I was kind of uh you know, very worried about my family, my sister, and so on.And uh Another interesting thing maybe is that I was actually here in Pula at night when they uh announced they will bomb the city.So, yeah, it was it was crazy.And I spent that night with my family, and we were waiting, you know, to whatever.Fortunately, it didn't happen, but uh that's something happened to me.And I thought, you know, why am I living in uh New York City or somewhere else?I want to be here.I want to be home.
So, 2 years later, I came back home and uh you know, I was fortunate that I was able to, you know, do what I've been doing in New York City, lighting, because lighting design didn't exist in here atthe times.
But but you established your practice in New York.You started
Yes, I started in New York.I started in New York.Yeah, yeah, I started there.I had some, you know, regular customers, and everything was, you know, going, you know, decently well.But then I simply decided that I didn't want to live there anymore, and I just came back home.And I continued here.And then my first project was uh a church tower in the village where I was living.So, that's how it went.And and and the lighting design of that church tower was so different than all the other ones that people noticed, and they started calling me to do other churches and towers, and you know, uh uh public realm projects,and that's how it started.
He shares the story of lighting Pula's cranes, how the project was funded and executed, and reflects on how lighting design has changed since the analog era.
Yeah, I remember your your Was it cranes or something that you lit up?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Cranes, that's all.
It's spectacular.
That idea came about when I was when I was rowing, you know, I was rowing.There was a rowing club in the port.And when I was a kid, I was looking at those cranes every day when I was training and I was like, "Wow, you know, imagine if we can make something spectacular out of these cranes."I had no idea I'm going to, you know, be in lighting business 20 years later.So, it was so funny.And then uh then uh the owner of the hotel resort saw those uh uh simulations of the cranes in color in my book that I published in 2010 or something like that.And he said, "Dean, what is what is it with that?"I said, "I don't know, you know, they don't have the money.Nobody's "I'm going to find the money."So, so we collected private money.
And then the tourist board saw that that there is a uh you know, a a good amount of financing from private companies here.And then uh we did it for free.I mean, me and my guys, we worked for 7 months almost every night uh with workers from a shipyard who also did it for free.And we pulled it off.So, when was the uh first light festival in Pula, it was 2014 or 12.I don't remember anymore.The cranes, you know, was something that we uh synchronized uh 6 minutes of lighting of cranes with music.
Mhm.
And the people were invited to come to uh to to the port.And suddenly about 15,000 people showed up and they blocked all the roads and streets and the police didn't know what to do with that.It was crazy, you know.And it was, you know, we turn it on, we put some huge speakers uh because it's 800 m distance between the cranes.
Mhm.
Where the people were looking at it and it was absolutely spectacular.When that was probably most emotional moment in my career.So, it was great.
Are they still there?
Cranes uh the shipyard is pretty much bankrupt.But the shipyard is still there.They're still doing little something.Cranes are there and I was uh we we were just hired by uh the tourist board to you know, go through uh the equipment and see what needs to be done because of course after all these years alot of things are not working.So, because we had these antennas on each crane, they were talking to each other.And another funny story was I received the email about 2 months ago.The guy across the shipyard is is is a marina.So, this guy came with his yacht and he invited his uh grandchildren because they wanted to see the cranes lit and he writes me an email, "I don't see the cranes lit.Can you please turn them on because my grandchildren are coming to see it?"
I said, "I'm sorry, but I can't do that."So.Yeah, people were coming just to see the cranes, you know.
Well, it's nice.It's nice.Now, when when you and I started lighting design, um it was practically analog.There are no no no digital things that we have today.All the technology changes that we have like the digital controls, LEDs, all the simulations and visualizations as well.So, what what what do you feel has really changed since you studied lighting design and and to where we are today in our profession?
Dean discusses the lack of innovation among manufacturers, the rise of awareness around lighting design, and how he uses AI and simulation in his workflow.
Well, what really changed is that uh I kind of you know, more and more people are aware of a lighting design profession, which is a good thing.But, the the bad thing is that most of the manufacturers kind of lack in innovation, you know.I I don't see anything being innovated, you know.Everybody's kind of scared.Everybody's copying everybody.And uh uh you you you don't see that many tools if you are really crazy and creative and you want to do crazy stuff, you know.There's not that much you have the ingredients available because they keep repeating it themselves all the time and the fear of all these Asian product coming flooding everywhere, you know.And uh uh I I I'm sorry that a lot of them are giving up, you know.They're practically giving up, especially in the in the street lighting, which is the topic of of common.
And uh I'm sorry for that.But, uh on the other hand, you know, at least my company, you know, when when you know, when people call us, they know what to expect.They know why they call us, you know, because I never knocked on anybody's door to look for a job, you know.They they're simply coming to us, you know.So, and uh Yeah, go ahead.Go ahead.
Yeah, no, no.I I don't want to interrupt.I
Now, what's changed?Uh as I said, you know, our profession is gaining momentum.I I think
I don't know what AI is going to do with that.Uh I'm personally working on something that could help.Uh but uh
There's no enthusiasm, somehow.I don't know.It may be I'm too Maybe maybe I've been around for too long.So very few things excite me, you know, anymore.So
Well, you you could argue that the arrival of AI is some sort of an excitement.I mean, it opens a lot of doors that were previously not open to it.
Yeah.You think?Like which door?For example
I'm asking you.
I I I use it to simplify my work, but the ideas always come out of my head.And a lot of times I argue with ChatGPT and I tell him, "What why you you don't understand what I'm saying.No, you did it all wrong.It doesn't look It shouldn't be like that."
Yeah, right.
So, we have these back-and-forth arguments, but at the end there's always a guy in my office who's very good in simulation in 3D that understands exactly what I'm talking about.So, he does the final job of presenting the project.
He explains how light-pollution legislation exposed the flaws in street lighting practice and led him to build TaMaN as an automated, norm-based calculation tool.
We'll we'll get back to that point, but let's let's dive into Taman.Where did it come from?I mean, what did you see 5 years ago, I think, when you start with this that made you think that the conventional street lighting design process was fundamentally wrong?
Well, it actually came longer than that.I think it was 7-8 years ago.I don't remember.The Croatian parliament announced that they will uh have this legislation, the law, against light pollution.And nobody in the in the profession knew that this law is being written.And they the the the Ministry of environmental protection, they asked the help from the activists, astronomers, you know, people like that who were never in their life involved in lighting projects in in in urban environment.So, when we read the law, I realized that if you really follow the law to the word, you're going to have to shut down all the lighting in the entire coast of Croatia, which is only 1,700 km long.And then I was invited by the ministry and me and and the late a friend of mine, professor on the university in Zagreb, who was an expert in the in the field.
And then another person who is expert in street lighting.And then we went to talk to the to the the people in in in in the ministry and I made them realize that this law is completely wrong.And that they're going to damage you know, the basic principles of why we use street lighting.And then they asked us to help.So, while I was working on that, I realized that we actually do not have the tools to do the street lighting properly.You know, we are limited to product.We first manufacture the product and then you know, we calculate, recalculate and we only calculate on the horizontal surface of the of the road.You know, we comply with the norm, but we don't care what happens beyond the surface of the road.And that's when I realized that we have a problem.Why can't I do something about that?
And I didn't even know if it's possible.So, I enrolled in a in a course on MIT.At that at the time, there was a they started with online courses, computational design.And I was talking to my professor of MIT and I asked him, you know, questions, is it possible to do this or that or do this and that and and then when he explained to me that it ispossible, then I find found a few years later a couple of developers who were uhspecialized in machine learning.That was their master's degree and uh we started talking and that's how we finally came up with a solution of automating the process of calculating the street lighting without the product.Cuz that's what we do.Taman calculates optimal light levels without any products.It generates photometric curves without product.And then it gives you a numeric uh uh uh calculation and solution illuminating only the surfaces that are should be illuminated without any spill light, light trespass, and so on and so on.
Mhm.
And then, you know, the manufacturer can use uh that photometric curves and make the product or research through the database of all the manufacturers that are in the database and we find the market match, that's how we callit, the closest existing product to perform as it should be in the optimal optimal uh levels of that particular area.And our software doesn't calculate only in between two poles, like all the others, we calculate the entire area that you inserted into the into the software.
So, in in order to get to that point where you can generate um the brief for a luminaire, what sort of input do I need to give Taman?Uh obviously, you need to to give it some directions on what you want.I mean, we I'm a bit like you.I I I think in lighting effects first and what the ambience and mood I want to achieve.I'm not so much into road lighting, more more into architectural lighting, but you work backwards and then you find a product that works.But what in in your case for TaMan, what is it that that the tool need in order to perform?
Okay.So, let's say that you don't have any uh DVG from your uh survey engineer, okay?Let's say you don't have a 3D model uh uh from that particular area of the town.You don't have anything.You go into TaMan, you screenshot in Google Earth the area of your interest.You import it in TaMan.You draw by your hand the layers.You say, "This is the road.This is the sidewalk.Uh sidewalk is 15 cm higher than the road, okay?This is the building, which is high 10 m.On the other side is the park.And then you say to TaMan, you you give the name to each layer.And to each layer, you give the category of the roads.For example, the road is M4.I'm talking about EN 13201, the European norms, but we can always insert any other norms.Then you say, uh "I want it lit."
Click.Uh buildings, "I don't want the building lit."Click.Uh "I want you to position my lights at a height of 8 m on the left sidewalk, because the left sidewalk is a different layer than the right side."Click.Uh the sidewalk should be illuminated by category P P1 or whatever.So, you you you just simply click those you know, the those little buttons and you identify what do you want me to do for you.And then you click auto position.So, I automatically position the fittings for you, the poles on the height that you desire.And then you click optimize and then I go through the process of calculation and then I generate the optimal photometric curve for that particular area.Now, you may not be happy with the position that I gave you because I put the pole in front of somebody's garage on the entrance.
You just pick it, you move it and you recalculate again.You can turn it, twist it.So, you have a possibility as a designer to manually move and position whatever you want for whatever reason you want.If you are not satisfied with automatic auto position that we do for
So, the the for instance, lighting levels or or luminous levels are decided or um sort of directed by norms and standards.
By norm.Yes.Yes.By norm.By norm.So, you are complying with the norm that is currently existing.Uh we're probably going to have to use different norms.The Pacific Northwest National Laboratory is currently testing uh Taman in Seattle and they came to uh pretty much the same results as we are on our pilot projects, but we can reduce uh the luminous flux over 40%.In the same area, on the same street uh uh you know, we we did a project using quality products from European manufacturers.
Mhm.
Okay?And then when we let Taman do the calculation automatically, we reduced uh 45% the the required luminous flux on the same project on the same street by the same norms, same category of the norms, and same results cameabout with the Pacific North PNNL in in Seattle who saw the Taman and they they wanted to test it and see uh how it works.So, uh you know, in any any any pilot that we tried, we always have an enormous reduction of light required from the particular area that that you are doing.
The conversation covers TaMaN's machine learning, its ability to optimize entire areas, and the vision for city-scale master planning and digital twin integration.
It sounds impressive.So, how much AI is actually in your tool, if I may ask?
Well, AI is there because uh it's a machine learning process actually.So, we are every times we use it and test it or somebody uses it tested it, we learn from there, and that's how we uh you know, collect data, and then you see, some people ask me, "But youdon't want to make every single fixture custom in the city."You don't have to do that because we we we are allowing you to have a certain percentage of difference between the M the this street or in the city or that one.So, how many different categories of the street can you have?10?15?20?It's not 2,000, right?And then it's the it it's on a global level because, you know, most of the streets are the same.So, uh you know, I I think that uh also what we are proposing is something we call TALK, which is Taman automatic lens configurator.
That feature is not finished yet because, you know, we are looking for a a A a strategic partner who would, you know work with that on us, but you know, if I generate that optimal photometric curve for you,how are you going to make the product out of that?So, I'm going to use all the existing little optics from various manufacturers that you are using as a manufacturer.You're going to give me that data, and I'm going to automatically make the little matrix for you.Where can you put the lenses in order to achieve my optimal photometric curve?So, my biggest disappointment in lighting industry it because the the production is so outdated.You know, if you see that 100,000 pieces in one car is done with robots, and we are still manually welding and putting things it's uh for me it's crazy.So, imagine I do that little matrix for you.
You create a module like we used to have light bulbs.You know, when when the street light burns, you change the light bulb or a driver.You know, today you change the lighting fixture.Why?Imagine Imagine a manufacturer ordering 1 million pieces of housings.Like now Turkey is planning to replace 10 million uh street lighting uh fixtures.So, you order 10 million of them.You know how much could that cost?Very little, right?And then you just make the module that I generated for you, and you just click it on the existing on the housing.And each module can be so many different ones, but you just click it.And after 12 years, 15 years when it burns out, you just replace the module.So, the whole thing
We sort of have that already with with architectural lighting.There's already like in interiors we already have that sort of an approach, right?So, uh I think it makes total sense.I mean, just now you said um the Termanis is learning from from uh previous lighting designs, it optimizes it, and it it sort of does its machine learning and and combines all that.Does it ever suggest something and did you find that that it has come up with something that an experienced lighting designer like you said, "No, I wouldn't have considered that.I wouldn't have done that."
Well, in the initial testing process that we had, you know, we found a lot of bugs, of course.Uh and we we were fixing these bugs through the process.
Yeah.
And we were teaching teaching uh the uh the the the software how to not do that when you come across that particular situation.But, you know, there's always going to be many different situations, which unexpected ones, and that's the data we are gathering.We we're learning all the time, so that we don't repeat the same uh uh unexpected mistake or bug, whatever you want to call it.I'm sure there're going to be a lot of bugs found in future.So, uh you know, it's it's it's the process, but when you compare the existing way of calculating street lighting, which is reverse, you know, it's completely reverse.You have to have a product.You have to specify product first.And then you calculate, you know, and then you prove that in between two poles on the street, you the the M4 category of the street is okay.
And that's it.You deliver the project.Then you install it, and you see that that light is lighting up the building three story high, you know, in in in this street, and then all the way over there in that river or something like that, youhave uh all these glare light that it's completely unnecessary and that's the wasted energy and wasted light that I wanted to um you know, reduce with with my idea.
I mean, we've been here spent decades decades of of designing luminaires that shouldn't have been doing that and and and you know, created all that brightness.Um you you're basically saying what we need is darkness where it belongs.Um can Tuman also identify where light should deliberately not go?I mean, you are saying, okay, I have to tell it don't lit that don't light that.But I can imagine that after some machine learning it would be able to say this is um why would you light that?Don't do that or you know, it it could come up with some recipes that exactly follows that uh that principle that Tuman is about.
That's a very good idea though, you know, that's a very good idea.We came across an interesting uh an interesting uh example from uh you know, PNNL in which they they designed 18 positions of the same layer.And they told my software, I want you to put the light in that layer.So, my my my my software said, okay, that's what you want me to do and he put 18 poles on the road in which five would be enough.But you told me to put 18 of that.You know, with even with 18 poles we reduce the amount of luminous flux because this is my basic principle.I want you to have the minimum actually the optimal necessary.but your investment is incredible.You have 18 poles where you only need five.So, then we realized, you know, this is something Ta Man should tell you.
Why would you Why would we want to do that?You don't need to do that.Yeah, yeah, that You see, but through conversation with users and people that are testing it, you know, we also learn because, you know, when you are for such a long time in the same process, there are many thingsthat you simply don't see and uh you know, the outsider would see them right away.So, yeah, we keep learning all the time.
Well, then there's also the matter of scale because obviously Ta Man can can um look at a road or street, but you can also I think you're you're you're you're promoting that also with Ta Man look at thecity scale, uh complete urban zone.So, could you know, could that result in in something that um you look at an whole district rather than just one road at a time?
Yes, we are now working on a feature that we call master planning in which you will be able to practically well, depending on your computer power, actually our computer power because Ta Man is web-based, so everything is happeningon our server and our cloud.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, so you can't really download it on your computer.Um so, uh you know, depending on that, we will be able to probably have uh you know, up to I don't know, maybe 100 or 200 positions calculated at once.Uh I'm I'm I'm I'm now in discussion with the with the ESCO company who's running 232 cities and they want to use this tool because, you know, ESCO companies make money out of reduction of energy.So, once you reduce the energy once, what are you going to do the next time?You know, the lumen output is not going to go up very much.So, you know, this is going to be you know, interesting leverage for these companies that are then you know, joining you know, public bids from the communities.Here, this is what we can do.We can additionally reduce the energy consumption.We can reduce the light pollution.
We can eliminate light trespass.You know, there are so many things we can do that previously wasn't possible by using this this particular tool.So, yes, master planning is something that is uh our vision and we also want to work with the digital twin companies, you know, who are in charge of running the entire infrastructure for all cities.And I'm they can find this tool extremely useful.You know, planning ahead the maximum consumption of energy and so on.So, I I'm optimistic.I don't know.We'll see, you know.
Sounds like a great idea.I mean, I can't imagine that cities create digital models of you know, where light should be and where light should not be.Um and and have that as a blueprint for for developments.I mean, many cities in in the world have a city the the the bigger cities have have master plans.But that's as good as the designer and and and as you said, it's mostly designed of from the light to its environment rather from from backwards like the way you approach it.So, I can see that working very well.
Dean reflects on how manufacturers and investment owners respond to the tool, and how politics and legislation may determine whether the approach is widely adopted.
Now, my my my next question is about how is that being received by manufacturers?Because technically, you you are turning the traditional manufacturers' catalog on its head, no?
Well, we did speak to two, three of them.Okay, and they're all European well-known manufacturers.And I didn't see much enthusiasm in that because after, you know, several meetings they said, "Well, we are giving up production of street lighting anyway."You know, because we can't compete with Asian manufacturers and it's not bringing us revenue.And then I said to them, "Well, this could give you something that you know, you are you you can't be replaced that easily if you adopt this manufacturing process.But as you know, this is another issue.Uh traditional European manufacturers are not owned anymore by the founder.They're owned mostly by investment funds.
I see.Okay.
You know, an investment fund is sitting on a computer looking at Excel sheet.And his only interest is to reduce the cost
Bottom line, yeah.
the profit so that they can sell it after 5 years for, you know, a couple million more, you know, pocket it and they really don't care.You know?And you know, these guys are now in a situation where I I I don't know where is this going, but if they continue like this, I don't see a bright future for European manufacturers to be honest.
Potentially, I mean, this could mean that we move from from mass-produced luminaires to mass-customized light.You know, that like it's you you providing manufacturers with a potential blueprint on the how to capture a new market or or a new way of approaching it properly also within our social and environmental uh environmental norms.Um, I can see that as being a potential way out of the problems they're in right now.
I see it, too.But, you see, in order for for a leader to make a decision, he needs to be a leader, he needs to be a visionary, and he needs to, you know, have the power to make those decisions.If you have companies that are not owned by a person, but by institution, that institution doesn't really care, you know?They're not in lighting business.Like, uh, look what happened to Porsche, for example, you know, the Porsche, they lost 30% of their sales because the guy the CEO, he doesn't even know how to drive a car, you know, just to say.
He He's an in in investment guy, you know, he's an economist.And, you know, these are things that, uh, I think they're the traditional companies, but I see, you know, the the companies from Poland, for example, the companies from Turkey, they have a very different approach, okay?I think they they have a good future.I don't even want to mention the Chinese companies.I never spoke to any of them.I'm flying to Shenzhen next week because we won, uh, the Lux Futurum award for, uh, you know, this year.
So, I'll see you
See you there.
Yeah.I'll I'll be there.
Yeah, of course.I'm I'm the I'm the host.
Oh.Oh.
It's Lux Futurum Lux Futurum is a is a VLD C, uh, um,together with a Chinese organization.So, I'll be your host and moderator.
Beautiful.So, you know, maybe some Chinese guy is going to sitting there say, "Hey, this guy knows something I don't know."Maybe
Yeah, yeah, yeah.That's why I think it's really interesting if you present that there at Lux Turul next week.So, I think you know, in in 10 minutes it's going to be very difficult for people to understand.
I know.That's why we're we're now in this in this chat we we can we can add in a bit of more information that people can look at look at later on.Now, I want to bring back the lighting designer in this discussion because if someone can determine the optimal position, the distributions, and outcomes, and compliances, and all that.Um what is the lighting designer actually doing?
Well, lighting designer is never involved in street lighting, is he?Uh I mean lighting designers are never involved in urban street lighting.It's always in the hands of an engineer who at the end has to sign a project.
Right.Okay, let's say lighting engineer, lighting designer.I mean, the the the creator.
Yeah.Well, every project that you do and and you know, you you are hired by the community to do the project for that particular street, you you have to prove that your project is going to be is going tocomply with certain norms and regulations, and also you need to provide infrastructure, and so on.And at the end you put your signature and your stamp as you are you know, an engineer, and your name is you know, you're responsible for the final outcome.So, today a serious engineer goes through the usual process of how to do it.I make the life much easier for him.You know, I I automate the process for him.You know, I guarantee that he is not only going to save time in that process, but he's only going to get you know, a better result at the end if he cares.
And you know, because uh ask me about politics later.I'll tell you something very interesting.So, you know, I'm saving you time because you know, every country, every region, or maybe even every city is working with two, three different manufacturers.You know, they usually have or the ESCO company of some company of electricians who are maintaining the street light.You know, and then as as an engineer, you cannot specify the product.At least you can't do it in Croatia or many European countries.You cannot specify the manufacturer or the code.You need to specify the characteristics of the product.So, imagine if you specify the the the photometric characteristics of the product.And that's it.And you say that this is the final outcome that I want on that street because I am complying with this, this, this, this, and that.Well, politics comes in in here because the politics, you know, the mayor said, "Well, I'm sitting here for 4 years.
I don't care.I want the cheapest product that is available on the market."
They have different agendas, yeah.
Right?
Yeah, yeah.
So, I was talking to Jana Yakushina.I don't know if you know that lady.We met in Paris in ILD conference.And she's a legislator she's sitting in Brussels.And she's involved in legislation processes of light pollution.You know, when he heard about my idea, you know, she was very excited.And right away, she, you know, her network was burning after she sent the all the information to other people.And she said, "Yeah, but this should become a law."Because until this becomes a law, no one is going to follow it.They don't care.
Mhm.
You know, mentioning politics before, I was honestly shocked how little the community, the mayor, and his people care about energy savings and consumption.It's all BS when they keep talking about green, green, green.Actually, they don't care.Okay?So, you know, I'm hoping that one day this process is going to become a law because it is the only way we can actually save energy and reduce light pollution.There is no other way.If we keep doing the same thing as we've been doing for 150 years, it's not going to happen.So,
He describes how TaMaN can free designers to focus on human experience, and discusses the philosophy behind the name, darkness, and the need to rethink lighting in seasonal cities.
So, if this if if someone allows um the designer to free up some time, um the designer can then um focus more on the human experience.Uh whether a public square feels you know, welcoming, whether it understand whether you can understand the cultural context or, you know, uh and also whether for instance, breaking the rules or the the codes might actually create a betterexperience.
Yeah, so imagine you are a a lighting designer and your architect or urban planner just designed this new square.Okay?And you are aware of the negative impact of lighting.You are aware of that.
Yeah.
But you you then go, you put the 3D model which architect already built because everybody's doing it in 3D today.You define the layers for for for the common you and then you start playing with the positions of the pole.You say, "I'm going to have the 12 m here, 5 m there.I want this entire square to be lit at category P2 because it's a pedestrian area.Do it for me and I do it for you automatically.You see, I give you the maximum lumen necessary.You can pretty much easily calculate uh you know, the average lumen watt today, how much watts you're going to spend, and then I give you the optimal level of lighting.You're not satisfied, you just move it here and then you retry again.You You can play.One more thing we can see now in our landing page is something that we call photometric viewer.
I don't know if you've seen it, but it's so cool.You import the the ISO TD file from any manufacturer and then you can see immediately the effect of light from that.You can raise the height, lower it, you can turn it, twist it, you can play.You see, this is something that is super useful for people who in in in in in general are not involved in that process, which is a lighting designer, you know, the engineer, you know, engineers, they're like a littlebit, you know, uh you know, formulas.Uh I satis- I I'm responsible, I satisfied my norm, and that's it, you know.But if you're a little bit creative, maybe you can move those boundaries.As you just said, you can play, you can come up with different solutions, you know, and very soon if you say, "Okay, I want this building to be lit."
You know, usually you're going to say, "No, no, I don't want this building."But there's a case where I want it to be lit, right?Flick.Let's see how that looks, you know.So, it it's a tool in which you can you can really be creative and if you don't have time, I can do everything automatically for you.So, it's it's works both ways.
So, how much of DIN is actually inside Tam on?I mean, did you have to translate things that you previously did instinctively as a designer into some rules for for the machine for the tools to understand?Uh and when when you're doing that, did you get anything uh like a feedback about your own design process that you hadn't really consciously understood before?
Uh well, I have to be honest with you.I wasn't much involved in street lighting in my career.Okay?I have I have my guys who are engineers, and when some street lighting project comes up, that's what they they would be doing.Uh I I I'm just a visionary, you know?I just have these crazy ideas, and I have another one which I'm not going to tell you now because it's a secret, but it's a Taman 2.0.
Okay, which is extending uh uh the the use of uh of of of lighting design AI and machine learning and so on.But my guys in my office, you know, they've been with me for 20 25 years, you know, we're old crew.It's Altogether we're 15 of us, 12 in lighting, and and and then the others, three developers plus uh my my partner in Switzerland plus the graphic designer, you know, there's so many of us.But my guys that are sitting in my office are very rigorous, serious engineers.And they know what they have to do when it comes to street light.So they were the brutally honest testers of Taman when we started.You know, and they would just whip my developers and say, "You can't do that.You have to be like this.It has to be like that."It's you know, so the end result is that Taman needs to be a professional tool.
It's not a toy.And of course developers and and much younger guys than me, you know, they have a little bit different vision of how UX and UI should work.And we we you know, we clashed couple of times and said, "Look, this needs to work for dummies.You know, somebody who doesn't know anything about street lighting must be able to use it.You have to give me that button and this button, and this button needs to be bigger because I can't see.You're younger, I'm not.You know, so but anyway, uh these guys are incredibly cool and uh you know, they come up with some weird stuff that I'm very happy about.Uh they they they take a look at uh the the photometric viewer.It's just mind-blowing how it works and it's so cool and it's so fun.You know, you you you you instantly see what's happening, you know, you don't have to wait to render or something.
It's just happening right away as you move your mouse.It's beautiful.So, uh well, you you you will probably understand uh my uh comment that sometimes it's it's difficult to work with young people today.
Ah.
Absolutely, absolutely.Now, the we haven't spoken about the name Taman because I understand in Croatian it has two meanings.I think it means like just enough and dark.So, that's nearly like a whole lighting philosophy in one word.
Yes.Yes.It was funny when I came up with it because you know, we were looking for the name and then I said, "So, what why not uh you know, Taman?"You know, Taman or Taman, you know, depends on the way you pronounce it, it spells the same.
What is the proper proper pronunciation in in in Croatian?
If you say Taman, it means just right.If you say Taman, it means dark.So, just the A, you know, the A, you know, taman or tamand.That's that's But, it means just right or it means dark.It spells exactly the same.So, I guess the person who's learning Croatian is going to have a difficult time understanding when is what.
And do you think we forgot what darkness is all about?
Completely.We completely forgot.And uh and and uh in in my uh in my presentation I just did in London, uh you know, the the initial animation shows when we started in 1879 or something like that in Newcastle, we turn on thefirst incandescent street lighting and how it spread very quickly throughout the world.And you know, taman is not even considering uh you know, the smart lighting systems, which can work on sensors and so on.I didn't add another animation that I have for my town of Pula, which shows the energy reduction if we use the smart lighting system.Because you see, in in a lot of Mediterranean towns and cities, I would say towns, like in Pula, for example, entire Croatian coast or on Italian coast or Spanish coast, you know, we have an incredible difference in theamount of people who being in the town or in the city during the summer or during the winter.
For example, in Pula, you know, until 2:00 3:00 in the morning, you know, if this town is packed with tourists and people and bars and terraces and film festivals and concerts and a lot is happening.Starting now until end of March, there's nobody.I mean, it's empty, okay?Especially in the evening, there's nobody.But, the lights are on 365 days, every night, all night, same intensity, everything is the same.And for me, that's crazy.But, that's the politics, you see?I asked the guys from Turkey, "So, who decided that you are going to replace 10 million fittings?"The government.I said, "So, you're telling me that the local community doesn't have any rights to say no?"No, no, no, no, no.They have to do it.You see?And that's so cool, isn't it?Now, imagine some Turkish manufacturer using Tamman for a 10 million fittings, you know?
I mean, the benefit for everybody, everybody.The government, the local community, the manufacturer, the and the planet at the end, you know?10 million fittings, if the average of them is going to consume 100 W, that's a lot of W, isn't it?
Yeah.
So,
Right.
The speaker outlines TaMaN's current development stage, future expansion into interiors and landscape lighting, and its potential as an API inside major lighting software.
So, Tamman, I understand from you, is currently in a sort of a beta version.It's been in development and uh you mentioned already it has been selected for the industry awards.Um you you have a like I think build back better awards.You've been nominated for you'll be featured in uh you'll be featured in the ILD Europe, I think you were or you you you will be.And of course, uh next week uh you will be uh prominent in in Luxifour.Um where where do you see yourself in in 5 years from now?Not not mean you, but Tamman.Where where should Tamman be in in in in a couple of years from now?Street lighting only or are we moving to landscape, public realm, or architecture, maybe even interiors.
Well, it it it honestly, it all depends on if we can start have some revenue out of TaMan, you know, because we don't even know what to charge for it yet.Uh actually today at noon we have the team meeting to decide, you know, to launch and what are we going to charge.And uh right now we're looking for a strategic partner that can come because we are financing all this for the 5 years by ourselves, you know, and you can imagine it's not cheap.You know, financing for 5 years all the developers and all the people that are involved, it's a lot of money that we invested.And uh but I do have uh uh uh an ideas of the future development of TaMan.I definitely want to do something for interiors.I want to do something for landscape lighting.I wanted to, you know, post potentially TaMan being a complete tool not just for numeric results, but also for visual presentations of your ideas.
You see?Uh and that's something that I I I I would like, you know, more more and more lighting designers to use, but not only lighting designers, you know?How many people when they do their homes hire lighting designers?0.01%, right?What about all the others?They ask the electrician, they go to buy some uh you know, chandeliers or some stupid things.Why can't they have a tool which that can help them to decide, you know?My my mom, maybe she should go there and look, you know, if I want to light up this table, what am I going to do?So, have a little guidance maybe that can help help you.So, uh for that I need to hire more developers, of course.
Yeah.
Uh we need you know people in commercial part because I'm not I'm good at explaining, but I'm not good at selling.
Yeah.
I was never good at selling anything.You know, I I I can talk about my ideas forever, but if you if if I have to sell you this,
Yeah.
I I don't know how to do that.Not good at that.So, I need somebody who's good at that.
Well, but but seeing is believing.So, already by showing off and and presenting, you already uh you know, share with people what what this can do.And there's quite a number of um designers in in in our industry that are tinkering around with with lighting design tools with AI integrated and all that.So, maybe I I've said that before, maybe we should sort of meet up together and and sort of see how we can join forces because everybody seems to be busy in their own little silo.I'm doing this, I'm doing that, but in the end, we're looking at a complete workflow from from creation to implementation.Um so, it could be something that that's worth looking at.
Uh this this is this is fantastic idea that you just said.I never thought of that.You know, I I I feel so alone in all this.I'm so alone.And and if if I can, you know, meet with same thinkers, you know, I I think we can create incredible things together.
in in in Shenzhen, Kuldip will be there, Faraz will be there, you will be there.So, there's a couple of us there.So, maybe we can find a little moment and and have a little drink and and discuss this because I think that will benefit everybody in the industry if we put our minds together and see how we can forwardthat.I did have another question like uh that's a bit on side, but if if Taman uh eventually becomes a a fully developed tool, is that something that you see uh I mean that comes back to the what youjust said.As an individual tool or or something that becomes a sort of a mainstream lighting design software that is basically thinking about how things go right now.I mean you have lighting design software.Could it be integrated as part of that?Um or would you see Taman living its own life as an individual uh tool that people can use?
Well, Taman uh Ta- Taman can become an API linked in Relux, in Dialux,
Okay, yeah.
in AGi32, in Autodesk, in AutoCAD, in Revit, in any software that people are regularly using.You know, I'm not competing with Relux or Dialux.I'm not a competition.
Mhm.
You know?I mean people think that uh what is that?No, we are not.You know, we we could easily be partners because what I do, they don't, and I don't do what they do.And you know, with the with the with the databases that they have and the and the possibilities that I do, you know, if we link together, we can do some incredible things.The The only thing so far they did was they stealing my my uh my slogan.Okay?Light where needed, darkness where sh- it should not or something like that, but obviously it was stolen slogan from one of them.Uh but uh I I could be anywhere as an API.
Mhm.
Well, Taman Taman can be can be useful tool for architects, urban planners, engineers, manufac- whoever.
Yeah.Uh we we are definitely on the threshold of a new a new world I think in in this respect.
The discussion turns philosophical, weighing machine optimization against human judgment, and ends with advice for young designers to be brave, creative, and authentic.
Um the if if Taman mathematically proves that your own preferred lighting concept uses more light than than Who wins?The designer or town the optimizer?
Oh, wait.What do you mean?Say again.
Well, you This again the human and and the machine.
Yeah.
Right?So, would you override the machine if you if you think that your solution is still better than what the machine comes up with even though you might use more light than necessary?
Mhm.That's a very cool philosophical question though.I like that.Well, I don't think the machine can always understand why is it that you decided to put more light than necessary.So, if you have an explanatory reason to do that, it's got to be uh uh you know, a reasonable explanation why you are you you have you have to stand behind your decision and your idea.And uh I would always give a priority to humans than the machine.Yeah.
But if you override it, what are you defending?Your your personal experience or your personal taste?
You have to have an explanation why do you want to do that here because maybe because if you want to do this in the entire city, then you are crazy.But if you want to do it here in this particular area where there is maybe children playing during the night or something and town on tells you you shouldn't light that up a bit more than 10 looks andyou say, "Well, children are playing Jimmy Durry looks, okay?That decision I would I would respect human decision.But if you want to do this throughout the city on a regular motor right traffic road or something, then I would not allow you to do that.
Mhm.Fair enough, yeah.I've got another philosophical question for you.If If someone comes up with a mathematical perfect lighting solution, can it still be a bad lighting design?
Um You know, some people commented on our video and said, "Well, this city this street looks very dark because the buildings are not lit."See, I I never expected such comment from people who are in our profession.I would like I like when the buildings are lit.So, here is the contradiction.We are all talking about light pollution.We are all talking about light trespass.But me, who will pass by that street once a month for 15 minutes, I don't care if that light is going in your bedroom every night all night because I like to see that building lit.You see?So, going back to what we discussed before, and I told that to Ray because Ray Maloney asked me the same thing, you know.And I said, "But that's architectural lighting.It's not street lighting.Taman is street lighting.Architectural lighting is something else.
You want that building to be lit because it's a historic building of certain value, somebody's going to order you the project, you do that.And then you have the building lit.But if you have that building lit, why can't we go and measure the light on that street and reduce the intensity of street lighting because the building which lit is reflecting that light and contributing to the overall amountof light on that particular street.So,
did I answer your question?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.No, no, no.It's It's, you know, these are things that sometimes we are so, so focused um that that we we I like to just step back a little bit and have this kind of of thoughts because that that makes youstep back and think and and look at what we are doing.Um one one closing question uh for this session.Uh you you you have like 35 plus years of experience, if not longer.What should a a new uh new lighting design like a new generation lighting designer, they say 25-year-old lighting designer learn that someone could never teach them?
Be brave.Be creative.
Yeah.
Be you.That's it.Don't be afraid.I mean,
I'm speaking from my personal experience there.You know, because so many times in my career, I offered uh lighting solutions to people that never asked me to.It just comes to me.I said, "Why don't we do that?"And I was fortunate enough to say, "Oh, wow, we like it."That's why I am where I am today.So, if I wasn't brave, you know, to uh you know, take the road less traveled, uh I probably wouldn't be where I am.
Dean, thank you so much for this chat.I really enjoyed that.Um in a separate session, I would love to dive into Tamang so we can share that and and explain a bit more in detail.Thank you so much and I look forward to catching up with you in Shenzhen.
Thank you, Martin.Looking forward.And it's not going to be one drink, probably.It's going to be more than that.
Well, thank you again.
Thank you.