# After Doi Moi in 1986, Who Built Vietnam From Nothing? | Sam Korsmoe & Sam Van | EP 386 **Channel:** Vietnam Innovators Digest **Source:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTorOuGCu5s **Transcript page:** https://www.withtranscript.ai/video/VTorOuGCu5s ## Chapters - 0:00 — Introduction and Guest Overview - 2:21 — Defining Innovation within Vietnam Context - 8:12 — Learning from Regional Economic Transformations - 13:14 — Awareness Challenges and Embracing Failure - 21:02 — Origins and Purpose of Innovators Book - 27:36 — Reflections on Doi Moi and Generational Drive - 32:19 — Narrative Style and Historical Parallels - 42:54 — Diaspora Engagement and Common Themes - 49:54 — Future Projects and Reader Takeaways - 58:17 — Personal Stories and Closing Reflections ## Transcript **[0:00] Speaker A:** To think that innovation and innovators must come from the high tech industry gives a very narrow view of what innovation is. If you're a farmer or if you're a salesperson, you're a factory worker, you're a construction worker, you're always in that mindset of, how can I do this better? **[0:15] Speaker B:** Our life is about managing risk. Alberting family that come over. Fu Mei Hung, look at the swamp for us, we look at it as like, God, it's a lot of work, but they see a future, they see building, they see a community. **[0:28] Speaker B:** They see things that we don't see. The more risks you take, the more returns you get. **[0:34] Speaker A:** 1975, a new country. Doi Mue came out in 1986. There's been a constant process of just trying to figure out the next best step. **[0:43] Speaker A:** Failure. **[0:44] Speaker B:** So what? **[0:45] Speaker A:** This country had 30 years of warfare. They never gave up, obviously. And they constantly reinvented, constantly moved, constantly changed, and in the end, wonderful. **[0:57] Speaker C:** Good morning, Vietnam. Welcome to another episode of the Vietnam Innovators podcast. I'm your host, Tao. Thank you for tuning in. As we approach our 500th episode, I'm very honored to welcome two guests here today. We have one that's a repeat guest. He had quite the hit about six months ago with his other fellow co author, Brooke Taylor. Rising Star Vietnam. **[1:19] Speaker A:** Asia's Rising Star. **[1:20] Speaker C:** Asia's Rising Star Vietnam. **[1:23] Speaker C:** That's a book that he released sometime last year, and he's now released a new one in 2026 that we have here, 40 years of innovators, which we'll hear in just a little bit. So thank you, Sam Korsmo. **[1:35] Speaker A:** Thank you for the invitation. For the second time. I appreciate it. **[1:38] Speaker C:** For the first time ever on this podcast, we have a second guest with the same exact name. Not last name, first name. Sam Van. He's the founder and CEO of SRO Partners, which is a financial advisory firm based in New York City. But Sam, of Vietnamese descent as well, has come back to Vietnam quite some, many times, actually, over the many years. And he's the co author of this book which focuses on innovation, the future of the economy, and it profiles 25amazing innovators here in Vietnam over the last 40 years. So thank you to both of you for making it here. **[2:13] Speaker B:** Thank you. **[2:21] Speaker C:** So we're going to start with a bit of a framework here today. People constantly ask me even the name of our podcast today, Vietnam Innovators. Why innovators? What does that even mean? Is it just for tech people? Is it just for starter people? And I Think it's very important to set the context in terms of Vietnam as well, because innovation in Vietnam means a lot more than that, in my opinion. So maybe Sam Van, I'm going to start with you. **[2:49] Speaker B:** Well, I appreciate that. Invaders by definition itself, it starts with people and technology. **[2:56] Speaker B:** How do you plan to use the tools? In my observation about innovators, it happens every day, everywhere, and it's not loud and it's not up in the center. So when you think about some of these things that we talk about, technology, innovation, whether through AI and how that be applied to day to day life as well as day to day technology, in a way to define what that efficiency will be. And that is still with people. So I do think the innovators itself, it's come down to the people's expertise, knowledge, how they want to apply the tools to meet their purpose. **[3:37] Speaker B:** So a lot of time is you start with the questions, what is the tools available today or the future that we need to build to make something great? And sometimes along that way that's errors too, and then you create something even better. I think that's the beauty of your question, is it is a question what is innovators? And for me it shouldn't be loud and it should be a discovery process. And that's what I think about that definition. **[4:08] Speaker C:** Cool. And so we're going to explore that in the book today and we're not going to read the book for you guys, you're going to have to do that yourselves. But we're going to talk about the purpose, the origin story of the book, and a little bit about the content too. But Sam, over to you. Before we continue as well, I want to hear your opinion about innovation from a business level, but also from a country level. **[4:26] Speaker C:** Because when I read this book, I read it some months back before it went publishing and Sam, who's lived in Vietnam, Sam Koresmo, sorry, our Saigon based author and writer here, Vietnam innovation is unique in its own sense. So could you share a little bit more about someone that's lived here for 30 plus years? Like, what does innovation mean in Vietnam context as well? **[4:50] Speaker A:** Well, the first thing I would say is it's not just high tech. And to think that innovation and innovators must come from the high tech industry, I think is a very narrow view of what innovation is. **[5:01] Speaker A:** So innovation is a farmer whose rice fields have a higher level of ocean water than before. So they have to think of a new thing, maybe converting to shrimp or something like that, or a coffee farmer who is trying to break into a value added product of their coffee beans, instant coffee or something like that. And so innovation to me, and this applies to your question on the case of Vietnam, because Vietnam is in catch up mode, if you will. So 1975, a new country, first 10 years, not so great. Doi Mui came out in 1986 and from that point on is innovate, to renovate, to change, to do something new. So there's been a constant process of just trying to figure out the next best step. And that applies to absolutely everything. It applies to business development, it applies to laws, infrastructure, agriculture in particular, trading, marketing, promotion, actual investments. **[6:03] Speaker A:** And so the country as a whole, I would say, has been innovating for about 40 years. 86 until now. **[6:13] Speaker A:** And it's not a straight line and it's not loud and it's constant fixing, constant changing, constant tinkering with everything. And so I think any tech person would appreciate that aspect, is that when you go out to build a new app or something, you're constantly looking at the codes, you're constantly tinkering. And it's no different if you're a farmer or if you're a salesperson, you're a factory worker, you're a construction worker, you're a grab driver, you're a bee driver. **[6:42] Speaker A:** You're always in that mindset of how can I do this better? And being here as long as I have, it's been really exciting to see that on a constant daily basis. And no matter who you meet, it's not just high tech entrepreneur types who exhibit that behavior. It's kind of everyone. And that's exciting. **[7:04] Speaker C:** Yeah, I think it's quite unique from a Vietnam lens too, because for the audience, in case you guys didn't know, I'm from Silicon Valley, which is the heart of tech. **[7:13] Speaker B:** Right. **[7:13] Speaker C:** And when I was growing up, my entire family works in tech and they still do today. All my friends, including myself, worked in tech. The kind of joke was either you were in sales or in engineering. **[7:24] Speaker C:** There's only two roles in tech and anything else outside of that means you had to commute like two hours to get into the city kind of thing, which I did. **[7:35] Speaker C:** And that's the beauty of innovation. I think around the world too. It's not just tech, and you can argue it's getting commoditized with the rise of AI. AI is now coding faster and better than the junior level entry engineers that are graduating school today. So innovation comes from mindset, as you said, success. Sam, over here, and then you mentioned also from A country level, it's like everything from agriculture to manufacturing to the everyday people. So we're going to dive into that a little bit here today, guys. From especially an emerging market perspective, I think that that'll be a lot of fun. **[8:12] Speaker C:** So before we continue too, I want to lay the groundwork because a lot of our audience and I'm sure you guys too have considered the comparison with other. **[8:20] Speaker C:** They call them rising tigers, I think. **[8:23] Speaker B:** Right. **[8:24] Speaker C:** So we reference Korea, Taiwan, Singapore. They all had a moment of some sort of innovation that led them to where they are. Like you could say Singapore from a kind of government reform perspective. They had. I forget the guy's name. Lee Kuan. **[8:39] Speaker A:** Lee Kuan Yew. **[8:39] Speaker B:** Lee Kuan Yew. **[8:40] Speaker C:** I knew that he like helped change the game. From a leadership perspective. Korea was obviously emerging from the Korean War and just doing a lot of export oriented economy. Where in Vietnam is it in its own journey? So Sam, I'll start with you **[8:59] Speaker B:** History tend to give you a preview from other countries developed Asia. If you look at the 11 countries from Southeast Asia, including other countries in the developed world. Korea, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong have gone through this journey much earlier on before Vietnam. **[9:24] Speaker B:** Some of the innovations come down with strong leadership. And with strong leadership innovation of regulatory framework. And how do you invite strong leaders as well as the people able to carry out the work. And then you invite other corporates. And if invitation of corporate from time to time changes in terms of the mindset comfort about investing in the countries. **[9:53] Speaker B:** Whether it's infrastructure or health care, depending on the sectors. **[10:00] Speaker B:** The government have to start of their own as a sponsor in order to elevate and finding the mindset of overseas. Invitation of certain expertise and willing to open up to welcome people to come in. You see that evidence in Singapore in all the developed Asia that you look at now. Vietnam journey as you think about is starting now in some way after there are certain critical policy have to be lived and one of them is embargo. And then you think about the changes taking place free enterprise rule that come much later on. **[10:37] Speaker B:** And I think the current focus with some of the circulars that's trying to push for innovations and a lot of discussions around is is the rule ready right for certain sectors are the people also ready? Now Vietnam have been quite great at marketing the population 100 plus million people. But if you define that hundred and plus million people, you examine what percentage of those actually are working then within the working framework, how do you look at the age group? One is the legal age to work to certain Age and then the 20s, the 30s and 40s, where are that skill set along that way, if you don't have certain type of skill set along that group of aging, how do you train them and able to elevate every five years and retool these particular group so that they can actually focus on the agenda moving forward. **[11:46] Speaker B:** As I look at Vietnam, I still think there's a lot of opportunities, but you have to solve these opportunities in the right way and prepare your large base of working class. **[12:00] Speaker B:** And they all come in various skills as well. But if you don't, you should welcome and invite other highly skilled people coming to Vietnam. And with that is also coming from a standpoint of compensation arrangement as well. A lot of people don't necessarily talk about. I always say you get what you pay for, right? **[12:23] Speaker B:** And if you're looking at premium, there are a lot of purpose of why people go to a place and want to build. But they also sometimes reluctant and say, hey, I have a family I have to take care of. So if you give that particular group of skill set a comfort package where they can invite the family, where they focus on building and purpose, I think they will do a great thing. I think happening right now in Vietnam as we we talk about, you see a lot of the first Vietnamese, Viet Giu and I, and people also from nearby country, from Australia, New Zealand, we had the privilege of speaking to. They're very excited about Vietnam and they want to be in Vietnam. **[13:06] Speaker B:** And the other thing is how do we welcome them and able to compensate in the right way so they can focus on their work. **[13:14] Speaker C:** What you just shared reminds me of two things. One is you can actually argue companies in Vietnam of all types, small, big foreign, direct investment Vietnamese are actually compensating now. But the big challenge is the awareness of some of these potentially talents. Vietnamese who live abroad, who haven't been back home for a while. **[13:36] Speaker C:** Foreigners too, they just don't know. I mean, that's why you guys probably wrote books like this and I do my business. It's literally like when you go back home to New York and you tell your coworker, like, oh, I'm going to be in Vietnam for a month. They're like, why would you do that? And why are you even writing this book? **[13:55] Speaker C:** They become more curious. So it's also an awareness challenge, not necessarily an actual compensation challenge. Although that I'm sure has a lot of room to grow as well. And the second thing I wanted to note here is the origins of innovation. How does that actually happen? It's not just improving, but also having failed as well. Which leads me to my next question for Sam here in Vietnam, Asian countries in general, failure creates this stigma. I think everywhere does. But perhaps from an American perspective, less so. I think we are rewarded for it somehow in the us how does that need to change, if at all? **[14:36] Speaker C:** And what would you say needs to change first? Is it the people like us as individual talents, or is it the actual businesses that employ these people? **[14:46] Speaker A:** That's a good question, because a lot of MBA programs teach that failure is good because from failure you learn and then you move on. And I think here, failure, I guess I don't see the stigma as much because there's such constant reinvention that goes on just constantly. And so as a people or as a companies, I guess I look at it as it's all about the people. **[15:15] Speaker A:** And that's why we wrote this book, because it's all about the people. It's people with an idea that is unusual, an idea that hasn't been tried before, an idea that is totally high. Percentage of failure is in front of them, but they do it anyway. And in the case of Taiwan, for example, in 1980, President Carter of the US recognized the PRC as the China. And so Taiwan Republic of China was left alone. **[15:42] Speaker A:** And about that time, a group of Taiwanese businessmen got on a plane, flew to Hong Kong, got on a train and went to Fujian Province and started building factories. So their response to a political decision that ostracized the island in some ways was to, well, let's go to the mainland and let's start building. And that was the source of the whole Made in China movement. And Taiwan did the same thing when they invited the outsiders in. **[16:07] Speaker B:** Right? **[16:08] Speaker A:** And one of the biggest guys who heeded the call was a fella by the name of Morris Chung who showed up and built tsmc, kickstarted that whole microprocessing chips, making things. And I think Vietnam is. Is cognizant of that and is doing a pretty good job at that in writing people in. I'd said this before, I think you're an example of that and what you've been able to do here because there's a ton of talent amongst the overseas Vietnamese community. 5, 6 million people, most of them well educated. **[16:39] Speaker A:** And there's an affinity for the country, there's an infinity for coming back because there's a lot of opportunities here. Failure. So what, you know, I mean, this country had 30 years of warfare over hugely more powerful enemies. They never gave up, obviously, and they constantly Reinvented, constantly moved, constantly changed and in the end won. And so the 40 years of DOI Mai is similar. **[17:09] Speaker A:** Constant reinvention, not worry too much about failure. And if you fail, okay, learn, adapt, adjust, move forward. That's refreshing. **[17:18] Speaker B:** Yeah, if I can add on to that a little bit. I think failures define very broadly, right? It could be individual level, it could be community level and also can be state and also national level. So if you think about the startup world standpoint, actually what is failure? Is it not having the right product to meet the service demand or the customers and you're being voted by the customer in terms of the reward you will get and the satisfaction you will get and you're able to run your business continuously. We all know in any startup business the odds are against you 95% will fail in the next two or three years. That particular sector allows that. **[18:05] Speaker B:** Now if you're thinking about day to day job, well, you don't want to have too many failure, you want to learn so that you don't repeat. Because if you prepare food in a restaurant, at a service industry and you put the wrong ingredients, you don't want to put too many salt or sugar, then you might deter the customers away. But there are way to learn and train as well. And I think come down to is really the leadership of the, you know, whether it's managerial level and higher level. And I think Asia based tend to have a little dependent community as well. **[18:42] Speaker B:** Where you are within Asia, sometimes there's hidden, not anger, but people frustrated and they voice it outward. But you have to look at the perspective as well also again, people need to be trained. **[19:00] Speaker B:** Failure is a good way to learn. But I think more importantly is the individual's view when you do something wrong, how do you reflect it? Can you get back up and do the same thing but do it better? I think that's going back to the innovative side. It's part of that exercise. **[19:21] Speaker B:** You have people that, including this particular text on the book, a lot of failures. God, there's no technology available similar to today's world. But they do it in a way that they get up every day, they look at the sun, probably five o' clock in the morning sunrise and they say today's a new day and you're going to see female who have transitioned from industry to industry. That's a lot of great transferable skills. And then the best thing is when you lift yourself, you lift others as well. And I think this kind of the exercise where it's a reflection of the past, the Present and the future. Now, in today's world, we all bombarded with a lot of digital content, a lot of great ones, and then also there aren't so many great ones just for moment of joy. **[20:16] Speaker A:** Right? **[20:17] Speaker B:** We enjoy those things. But if you think about the time that you spend on this thing and the time you should be doing things, how do you measure your productivity? **[20:31] Speaker B:** So is it failure or is it productive? That's all come down to individual. Again, when I think about some of this exercise, if you're going to spend the time on things that enjoy, there's also opportunity costs where you can build on. So these are the individual questions one should be addressing. **[21:02] Speaker C:** I feel like the first part of today's show, which is about the definition of innovation, how we see it, is a whole series in itself. So I might have to bring you guys and all 25 guests at some point to talk about that. But I do want to talk about the book. So for everyone to know, this is their book, 40 Years of Innovators. So the personal stories of 25 individuals who have made a difference for Vietnam. **[21:27] Speaker C:** There's all different types of people in this book, and some of them have been on the show, but some haven't. **[21:32] Speaker A:** And the book will be in Vietnamese and English both. **[21:35] Speaker B:** Yes. **[21:35] Speaker C:** Yeah. So we have the English copy today here, and I've read it as well. **[21:39] Speaker C:** So let's dive into this. Why? Why this book? Why now? **[21:46] Speaker C:** So, Sam, over to you, I mean, Sam Koresma over here, our guest on the left to my left. You are an author, you are a writer. So that you do this for a living. You write a lot of other topics and books. Sam, you're a financial advisor. **[22:01] Speaker C:** M. And a broker. I don't know exactly what you do, **[22:03] Speaker B:** but I take company public. **[22:04] Speaker C:** There you go. Okay. You're an IPO specialist expert, it sounds like. Why did you want to be part of this journey? And what was that one moment that was like, hey, we need to do something like this? **[22:16] Speaker B:** I spent a lot of times in the field of finance when I welcomed leaders from Vietnam, going to the US since 2005, when the first Prime Minister visited the New York Stock Exchange. I was one of the greeting parties there. **[22:34] Speaker B:** And I think at the time, there's always a lot of interpreters and there are information, as we know, in those translations, there are misses of words, so on and so forth. And then if you look at how Vietnam present itself, it's always very exciting, a lot of mysteries in those contexts. So year over years, as I still live and work at the New York Stock Exchange, welcoming companies and leaders from around the world. And I look at how those countries present themselves in front of the capital market investors. And it's very different compared to Vietnam. **[23:17] Speaker B:** So I had the opportunity again to sit down with the ambassadors of the country. They have evolved and changed over time. And each of the representation of the ambassador. The English have gotten better and improved. And it's reflection of the talent, the generation shift. **[23:38] Speaker B:** And one day I was looking at. After Covid 2022, I was sitting down with one of the ambassadors at the UN and I say, we need something about Vietnam and that should represent the country. Dialogue to the West. A lot of time, the publications and the communication from Vietnam to the world is a little disjointed. When you read it, the first few chapters, quite exciting. **[24:13] Speaker B:** Then thereafter, the attention span is not going to be there. Also, I was trying to solve the problem as well. After Covid, I come back to via. I kind of say, wow, the country have built up incredibly even with the silent years around the world. That's two years during the COVID impact. **[24:32] Speaker B:** And I had this problem trying to figure it out. I know I have a lot of friends over the years I accumulated in Vietnam. And I wasn't sure exactly how to define a method, how to collect the thoughts and the things that they're doing As a representation that Vietnam indeed is an innovative place. Allow folks to have great idea to come into the sandbox and see if there's something there as a great representation. I was looking for Arthur and trying to figure it out. **[25:08] Speaker B:** How can we find a native English tone first in order to translate later on? It could be in Vietnamese, it could be in Taiwanese, or it could be in Korean or Japanese. As I go through this searches, one of my very dear friends also happened to know Sam. And he mentioned, well, Sam just got the book out. So I said, okay, I'm happy to talk to Sam Corsmo. And we kind of hit it up right away. I know that he has done a couple prior writing as well. And one of them is Cyclone Stories. And I think, wow, this is incredible. I don't like to waste time. So I say, let's sign up. Let's get things done. I've been brewing on this idea for a while. It took us about 24 months now to get to where we are. We hit the ground running. So the last two years, even my wife's starting to question, why are you in Vietnam so many times. **[26:08] Speaker B:** And I say, look, there is. There's a higher purpose Here. And I want to reflect Vietnam is a platform for all different nationalities. And it's not just only Viet Guiu, and it's not only for Vietnamese, but there are also. Vietnam receive a lot of help from foreigners from Australia, from uk, from the US from Taiwan, from South Korea, also from Japan as well. So we're trying to figure it out, the spectrum, who are these candidates? And then we start to interview them. And also it's through a filter process. There are certain criteria that we have to go through, making sure there is benchmark. I'm sure we miss a lot of great people as well, which should be in the book. And also there are people that we invited because of privacy issue. They actually naturally decline. And it's okay too. We acknowledge their contributions. **[27:02] Speaker B:** So we have the best. What we think are the people who actually start the journey within various sectors. It's just a glimpse. I don't want to view this book as a window to Vietnam, but it is the starting point to have a conversation about Vietnam because you have a lot of incredible people like you. Some of the guests that participate in this podcast, they could be equally qualified. **[27:29] Speaker B:** But we have to start somewhere, and I think this is a great way to have this conversation and dialogue. **[27:33] Speaker C:** We got to brainstorm how to take this further, guys. **[27:36] Speaker B:** That's right. **[27:36] Speaker C:** This is the origin stories of hopefully something great. Sam, over to you. You wrote your master's thesis on Daimo in the 90s, which was, I guess, only a few years after 1986, right? **[27:49] Speaker A:** Yeah, it was 91 to 93 is when I was in grad school. **[27:52] Speaker C:** So five to seven years after Daima actually happened. Now you're in a book about the 40 subsequent years of that. Quite the. **[28:02] Speaker C:** I guess, turning back the clock. You don't look that old, Sam. **[28:05] Speaker A:** Oh, thank you. **[28:06] Speaker C:** Looking very young. What surprised you most in the gap, if you had to Transplant yourself back 40 years ago, from in the 91 to 93 to present day, right here in the studio where you're sitting today, **[28:20] Speaker A:** what surprised me the most? **[28:24] Speaker A:** Gosh, there's so many things, it's hard to say the most. But, you know, one of them would be the passion for reinvention, for seeking something new, for innovation. Innovating hasn't ceased. People are still hungry, hungry for growth, hungry for this, hungry for that. When this current generation is no longer hungry, hungry. **[28:48] Speaker A:** So anyone who's in their 20s or 30s now hasn't been hungry, physically hungry. Their parents probably were, their grandparents definitely were. So therefore, if you're no longer hungry, so well, hey, let's relax, let's take it easy. And countries that do that kind of sort of slow down, the whole middle income trap stuff comes in. **[29:09] Speaker C:** Do you think that's a risk to Vietnam at the moment? **[29:12] Speaker A:** Well, that's a question I have in my head all the time. Because right now, here we are in 2026 and the government and the party said by 2045, we want to be a high income country. Okay, well, you've grown for 30 years, so do you have 20 more in you? And the 20 more in you comes from 10 years from now. Addressing a demographic issue, but more importantly, are you going to still be hungry? **[29:38] Speaker A:** And I think that's really it. And I've spoken to people around my age about their kids and I asked them, are your kids hungry? And the parents know exactly what I'm talking about and they are a little bit worried about that. **[29:51] Speaker C:** Well, compared to themselves or their parents, maybe. Well, yeah, Going back to the early 90s, hypothetically, I could have been born in Vietnam in the early 90s. **[29:59] Speaker A:** Sure. **[30:00] Speaker C:** Parents are Vietnamese. And you know, I grew up in the US Instead. And Sam. Well, both of you actually the same. **[30:07] Speaker C:** We lived very. Oh, I lived a very suburban lifestyle. We had a lawn, you know, we went to public school, we went to swimming, you know, after school and all that kind of stuff. Here in Vietnam, to have a kid in the early 90s was quite a risk. Or maybe that was just the purpose. **[30:24] Speaker A:** I wouldn't call it a risk as much as support your children. Yeah, but, but it's an all hands on deck kind of phenomena where one of the, and we, we covered this in Vietnam. Asia's rising star with a role of women. It was a team approach for a family. The husband and the wife worked hard and well and efficiently. More than one job. And when the kids got a certain age, they worked hard, efficiently. And maybe their job was to study and to get into a good school, to win a scholarship. And that incessant drive to keep going, to be higher, to improve, is phenomenal. And so when Sam came to me as a writer and says, hey, let's interview a bunch of people and write down their stories, oh my God, that was the greatest job possible as a writer to get that done. **[31:15] Speaker B:** Yeah, thanks for supporting that. Because in my view, the book is not about individually. Right. You and I, how we have this lottery ticket that we won, you know, being outside of Vietnam. So a lot of our years is missing in Vietnam. **[31:30] Speaker B:** So that's part of the discovery process. Like people who have committed Here not only the 90s, but multi generation as we shift of that 25, we wanted to pick every five years who are these people? And I think some of them, you know them pretty well. Like Yin Vu went to the uk, come back, she kept, you know, she want to focus in Vietnam and you have done a lot of great work and that's a younger generation. And Lloyd from Kyber Network or Kiba Network innovative from the blockchain. **[32:06] Speaker B:** So this is a new generation including some of the healthcare folks kind of say hey, I study abroad, I want to come back and country is missing something. Let's do something great together. **[32:18] Speaker A:** Yeah. **[32:19] Speaker A:** So we talk to over 50 people, completed more than 70 interviews to come up with the 25 people in the book. And it's a bit of a history book in some cases because we didn't ignore the early years of Doi Maui because someone had to go first. **[32:34] Speaker A:** The Doi Mai policies came out in 86 and they were vague and not clearly worded. We're not sure where we're going. And people had to be there at each step of the way to go first, to reinvent, to constantly innovate with a policy that was fairly vague, in particular with the private sector. And here we are kind of to your previous question. Four years later we have resolution 68. **[33:04] Speaker A:** We have the government and the party saying it's the private sector that is going to take this thing forward. And those words, that sentence that I just said wouldn't have been stated 20 years ago. **[33:23] Speaker C:** I want to put a number to that too. I just read online the other day that currently I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure 50% of businesses or the economy is state owned, like value creation or sorry, private companies, 50% each of them private. But the new directive is they want 70% of the output to be private based. So a question. Actually I have a new book idea for you guys. **[33:48] Speaker A:** Okay. **[33:49] Speaker C:** So I just finished reading A book called 1929 by Andrew Ross Sorkin. Just came out a few months ago. Do you know this book? I do. Okay, both of you know. **[33:58] Speaker B:** Yeah, I read the book. **[33:58] Speaker C:** You read the book already too. So what I liked about this book was anyone that knows American history knows 1929 because basically everyone lost their life savings. And there was then almost five years, I want to say of basically very big recession. **[34:14] Speaker C:** People were not productive, unemployment was massive. But then after that it just became a rocket ship. The New Deal. **[34:21] Speaker B:** That's right. **[34:21] Speaker C:** I think that's what they called it under fdr. **[34:23] Speaker B:** Kenziens yeah. **[34:24] Speaker C:** So in a way, Vietnam's Dai Mai was somewhat similar. I guess there was a turning point somehow. There's a big like. **[34:32] Speaker A:** Well, I think the turning point was what we're doing isn't working. **[34:36] Speaker A:** Let's come up with something new. I mean, the father of Doug Moy, technically, theoretically, politically, whatever, Wen Ben Ling and Win Wenling, as early as 1983, was writing articles about, hey guys, this isn't working. And that morphed itself into the policies in 86 and then onward you go. But these things. Diang Mai was not a magic bullet. **[34:58] Speaker C:** So Nguyen Van Lin and many other characters. **[35:00] Speaker A:** Right. **[35:01] Speaker C:** So why I made the comparison of that book, it was because if you read the book and Sam, I have a copy so I can give you here in Saigon, is because he wrote it, the author wrote it in such a way where everyone knows the event and some of the numbers and all this fancy stuff and FDR and all that, but there's so many different characters and people behind driving the decision making that led to that crisis and the resultant emergence out of that. And so the way he wrote the book, it read like a fiction book, but it's not, it's correct. Well, it's not completely non fiction, but it's, it's. It's like to get the real sense of the people driving these things that led to that event. So anyways, the point was, I think from a global perspective, well, this book addresses some of the people, but it's, it's more of a really deep dive into the people itself that you've chosen to profile. **[35:50] Speaker C:** But. But the actual Dai Mai and many other milestones in Vietnam's history, it'd be so cool to see, like not a completely non fictional thing, but kind of like a drama in a way. Like what led to this? **[36:02] Speaker C:** Who is this guy? You read about him, but nobody actually really knows. **[36:05] Speaker A:** I think it is. And this book kind of took shape in that way that we're telling the story of Vietnam through a bunch of stories of people who live in Vietnam. And like for example, our lead in. **[36:18] Speaker A:** As a writer, I'm always focusing on the lead, the hook. If you can't grab the reader right off the bat, doesn't matter how much the rest. **[36:27] Speaker C:** You sound like a tiktoker now, Sam. **[36:28] Speaker A:** Really? Okay, the first four seconds are the most important. **[36:32] Speaker A:** But like the lead on the Daewoo guy who passed away in 2018, I believe. And we spoke to his son for the book. We're talking about him in 1994. He was in Hanoi. He was going to meet Doomui, who was the general secretary at the time. **[36:46] Speaker A:** And that night, I think it was in July, the Dongshuan, I think market caught on fire. **[36:52] Speaker B:** Fire. **[36:53] Speaker A:** And he was there and he jumped into the market, was pulling people out, helping people in and clearing ways for the firefighters to get in. And no one knew who he was. But eventually they learned, well, you're not Vietnamese. **[37:05] Speaker A:** And he wasn't. He was Korean. He was the founder of Daewoo. The founder of Daewoo. Kim Woo Chung is his name. **[37:13] Speaker A:** And the very next morning, he met with Doh Mai and other, his cabinet and various people. And everyone, of course, was talking about the fire. And some people say, yeah, there was this foreign guy there, he was helping people out. And I wonder who he was. And Mr. Kim didn't say anything at the meeting. He made a million dollar donation to the victims of the fire. Now that's. That's a story that has nothing to do with Daewoo, right? Nothing to do with what Daewoo ended up doing in Vietnam. Extraordinarily significant investments in the 1990s. **[37:46] Speaker A:** And they, you know, of course they didn't make it from the 97 crisis, but the origin story of Daewoo in some ways in Vietnam was the founder of the entire Chaobol pulling people out of a fire at the Dongs Fund market. And so, you know, we have stories like that throughout this book. And gosh, I said this many times, it's all about the people. The reason Vietnam has a chance to hit what they wanted to hit in 2045 is this current generation of kids, I hope are as hungry and as brave and as innovative as that Korean guy was 30 plus years ago. Now, we could apply that to almost anyone in that book, in this book here, at different points in time in their history, they said, I'm going to go down this road. **[38:43] Speaker A:** That road there pays me a lot more money. It's more stable, there's more everything, but I'm going to go down this road. **[38:51] Speaker A:** That to me was the beauty of this whole project is being able, being in a position for us to bring to light those people's stories. Oh my gosh, dream job as a writer. And it explains Tai Mai, it explains Vietnam, it explains the capacity of the country. **[39:14] Speaker A:** My gosh, if there's 25 of those people that are like that, and we know that there's 25 million that are like that, you know, so how. **[39:22] Speaker B:** I think answering your question in between 1929 to Doi moi is quite a distance, right? I Think in between. If you look at the north of Asia, late 70s, you have the economic planet out of China because of starvations, famine, lack of technology, innovation. If you think about in the farming side, people are struggling, so the country itself is hungry for reform. **[39:51] Speaker B:** As you look at Vietnam, it's quite similar in the 86. So if you look at the parallel, there are some nuance differences, but they're not too distant. And so they've seen what have it done in China and mimic that on the policy side here in Vietnam, I think is the testament of seeing what the results. And the policy itself I think on the book was written is great. It's called the rail. **[40:23] Speaker B:** It's the rule and the framework. And it's a building block and innovation in law and legal standpoint, it should be building on it. And it doesn't work. You can always unplug it. And the people behind it are really the key drivers of what make the Moi work. **[40:44] Speaker B:** Answering your question, as a young teen, before I went to the US I was not too far, I was in Namgae Kaingi. Growing up, it was tough, but you make the best of it. As a childhood, you know what you know and you don't know a lot about the world. But at that time you thought, gosh, you have friends, you have food. Very basic high inflation. You don't even know what the inflation by definition what that means. You have to buy stuff before the price go up the next day. So your parents actually give you a lot of allowance, like for the first time. Geez, you got this great allowance as a kid, you have to go out and buy stuff. So I think in that childhood memories, I always kind of think about your neighbors and the enjoyment as a childhood. **[41:29] Speaker B:** And that's a very fond memories of Vietnam. It's a very community in Vietnam. So that's kind of how you celebrate. And if you look at the Vietnam kitchen, it's also the same thing. Everyone comes together, all the women, they cook, they clean, they prepare. **[41:45] Speaker B:** And that is what the 80s and the 90s all about. Because everyone share food even though we struggle. And that's what bonds people together. In Vietnam, which I find even for us, some of our family privileged enough to go to the state somewhat by different transportations instead of air, they also gone through the same thing. We all struggle, but we're always trying to build a community and share food and share culture. **[42:12] Speaker B:** Whether you're in San Jose, Silicon Valley, the same way, Garden Grove, Houston, Virginia, New York, Boston. All these pockets are full of Vietnamese Americans, but we're just talking about that. But also with that we open to other communities and then we invite them, intermarriage, so on and so forth, and you bring them back here. **[42:33] Speaker A:** So. **[42:33] Speaker B:** Which I think is incredible what we're **[42:35] Speaker C:** seeing now that reminds me of kind of the idea that, you know, as Vietnamese Americans we grew up with this idea of Vietnam, but we didn't actually experience it. **[42:52] Speaker B:** Right. **[42:54] Speaker C:** What would you say that this book helps accomplish for the other Vietnamese Americans? Because for us especially, I don't know about you, but for me I had no interest in Vietnam whatsoever. **[43:07] Speaker B:** Right. **[43:07] Speaker C:** And I would just read it very high level here and there. Like I remember in the textbook, it's just like one paragraph because. Presumably because America didn't do so well in Vietnam War. And then. Yeah. **[43:20] Speaker C:** What do you hope to accomplish with this book for that particular agency? **[43:25] Speaker B:** Good question. It's reasonable to have doubt and doubts come with fears. Right? Managing risk. Our life is about managing risk. And we all kind of have this crazy phrase say, hey, the more risks you take, the more returns you get. But if you examine the people who came back, they're willing to take risks. Like people like Don and his expat team from Canada, from the U.S. including Lewis Wing and a few others. They came back in, I say mid 2000 or early 2000, and they find Vietnam much more exciting In a mature world, in a developed world, I'm sure it's a lot of different excitement, but trying to find problem, trying to solve and be part of a changing agent in that world. **[44:12] Speaker B:** With all the regulatory wells already well in place, it's very difficult to navigate, to be innovators and trying to break things like Silicon Valley, break things and then try to resolve and try to build on something better. But Vietnam allow you to do that. So a lot of folks that come to Vietnam see a new opportunity like a canvas and able to put paint and own creativities and able to do stuff to make it better. It's okay to early question if it's wrong. We can always try something new and there is an acceptance of adaptability and also allow to advance your purpose. **[44:51] Speaker B:** Mostly they try to prove themselves and if they prove able to work, then it can always invite other people with a shared mind. I think that's the beauty of why this book works and including not just only the vq, but you have the Taiwanese alberting families that come over the Fu Mei Hung. You look at the swamp and what do you do? For us, we look at it, it's like God It's a lot of work, right? But they see a future. **[45:20] Speaker B:** They see building, they see a community. They see school. They see things that we don't see. I can look at this painting I enjoy differently than you do, how we interpret it. So on this particular book, I think for people looking at Vietnam, it's not a right place for everybody. **[45:39] Speaker B:** It's really come down to your risk management profile. What is this that you want to accomplish? Do you want comfort? To be where you are, where you grow up and continue to do that, and that's fine, too. But if you want to have excitement in life, life is a journey. If you want to come to places, it could be Vietnam, it could be Indonesia, it could be Philippines, it can be anywhere. Where do you want to find those footprints? **[46:04] Speaker A:** And just one thing. I hope that any reader, whether you're Vietnamese overseas or not, these stories are the stories about the person, not so much about what their company was. For example, Don Lam is in there. It's more about Don Lam than Vena Capital. Dominic Scribbin is in there. It's more about Dominic Scribbon than Dragon Capital, you know, and so on. And I hope people read that says, you know, that guy's kind of like me. That woman is kind of like me. **[46:33] Speaker A:** You know, if I go to that country, maybe I could do something similar. You know, I mean, the Ting family from Taiwan, they built a road to a swamp. That was it. And they did that because Saigon couldn't grow in any other direction. The only way it could grow was to the south. **[46:52] Speaker A:** But there's no land in the south. There's only swamp. That didn't deter them. He says, well, how about we build a road to the swamp, and at the end of the road we'll start putting out landfill to build and start building. And that's exactly what they did. And now we have Fu Me hung reclaimed land, 400,000 people who live there, 90 some schools, hospitals, universities. Oh, my God, it was a Swamp in 1990. You know, that's only 30 some odd years ago. **[47:29] Speaker C:** So of the many people that you guys interviewed, and there's, you know, so many hundreds more that you could have put in the book as well. Is there a recurring theme amongst them? As in, like, do they also have the shared belief that Vietnam is misunderstood? Do they have the shared belief that perhaps there needs to be more innovation in Vietnam? Is there any unifying theme that you identified? **[47:52] Speaker A:** Perhaps there's quite a few, actually. I mean, one would be a belief in the future. One would be I'm hungry. I want to keep going. One would be, there's no such thing as an obstacle. You just adjust and adapt and move and bob and weave and move forward. One would be not taking the easy way, not just taking the money and saying, okay, I just want the money. They didn't. They wanted something bigger, something grander. I think a belief in, you know, that we can actually do this. **[48:30] Speaker A:** We've proven ourselves already as a country from 1945 to 1975. We've proven ourselves as what we can accomplish. Okay, now we have this thing called daimai, but it's just words. So someone has to grab those words, grab those policies and leverage them and move it all forward. And I think there's a sense of optimism there. **[48:50] Speaker A:** They're optimistic people for sure. Hardworking, smart. Lot of them are good at math and science. You know, boy, they're quite similar. **[49:02] Speaker B:** I think it comes down to is one word, it's purpose. **[49:06] Speaker B:** What does that mean? **[49:09] Speaker B:** Every single one of them, if I don't do it, who's going to do it? And they view that is it purpose to survive, purpose to innovate, purpose to advance the agenda. And for them is there is some, I'm not saying imposter syndrome. It's proving to themselves they can actually do it. And I think that's the difference. **[49:36] Speaker B:** And that is in every single one of us. And we have to find that purpose. And like you said, there are 25 here, but there could be millions. Everyone come up every day to your show, they have a purpose and why are they doing it? They want to be here and they want to share the mission. **[49:54] Speaker B:** They contribute in some way, in some form to make a success. And also what you do here is also a purpose. Right? **[50:01] Speaker C:** That was my next question actually. Like, is there a second book? What's next? And you know, you actually just triggered another thought which was, you know, a lot of these are high profile folks, some are low key, some are not. But there's also like the everyday people. You know, if we were to paint a Persona of what like just society is like, you have that, you know, 20, late 20s year old, new mother who's at work, you know, work working, but also has a kid that's one. And then you have another that's like that new eight kid, just turned 18. They have to decide do I work, do I go to the trade or do I now go to university? You know, that was, that's, that's, I'm sure a question that hundreds of thousands of people are Confronted every year. And then you have people that are older, like the ones that you've spoken to, that worry about their kids. **[50:51] Speaker C:** So what's next to keep up this theme of innovation, at least between the two of you? I know you guys are out on a book tour at the moment, but is there hopes to do another thing? What does that even look like? **[51:02] Speaker A:** More stories. More stories for me. **[51:05] Speaker B:** Yeah, I think more stories, very broad. I think we have to define a more narrow path specific because this book gives you an appetizer of different industry, different innovations, different leaders leading those innovations. **[51:22] Speaker B:** Now you have to think about infrastructure. What does that mean by infrastructure? You talk about data center, you're talking about road, you're talking about building, you talk about smart city, incorporate all these services all together. Now you have healthcare. What does that mean? When you have 100 million people, you have annual death rates roughly about 3500, newborn babies roughly about 1600. As people age, do you have enough young people to replace on an annual basis? Keep up with the workforce, how do you make sure people live longer, healthier and not a burden to society? The health care sector and there are many others as well. Like you have fnb food and beverages, innovation of food so that we can eat healthier, diabetes concerns. **[52:14] Speaker B:** And then you talk about agriculture, you're talking about climate changes. How do you innovate the DNA biomarker of some of these seeds so they can weather resistant allow food securities around the world. So there are number of things that we can dive in. So it kind of give you a specific thing. But more importantly, where I will also want to think about is families in Vietnam. **[52:39] Speaker B:** Maybe not your generation, but my parents generation. You have like 10 kids, 20 kids, right? Maybe not 20, but the community get really large. So how do you think about some of these Vietnamese families who have been here building businesses, transitions of wealth, transition of family business to the next generation handover. How do you resolve some of these conflicts, family internal conflicts so that you can continue to innovate? **[53:09] Speaker B:** Already you probably have two friends that was hand down from the business. They gosh, I come back because my dad sent me when I was 15 to Western School coming back. What do I do? So there are a lot to explore. **[53:22] Speaker C:** I think that's a book too actually. **[53:24] Speaker B:** Exactly right. **[53:24] Speaker C:** It's a. **[53:26] Speaker B:** And then how do you adapt from regional practices as well as overseas practice? Set up a trust, set up a family offices? How do you address some investment? **[53:36] Speaker B:** Do you invest domestic versus abroad? All these things can be addressed. So I'm very excited about the possibility where we can lead. But I do think about if we go back to by sector and sector, that's enough. And we ourselves cannot do it. **[53:53] Speaker B:** We want to lead other people to do the work, invite other people in so they have a much more domain expertise. I like to think we know a lot, we don't know a lot. So we have enough kind of a preview. But in terms of expertise, and this is where we need to invite other experts who are interested in particular sector to share those thoughts. I think that's kind of where I like to invite other people as an open forum. **[54:26] Speaker C:** Very good. So as I understand, and we'll be collaborating down the line too, but there's a couple book launch events happening very, very soon. Depends when this podcast is released. What do you guys hope to have people that read this book take away from the whole experience, especially those that you don't know. Like if there's just. **[54:49] Speaker C:** You sold a couple hundred books, I think. Right. And I'm sure there's a lot of them. We just started who they are. **[54:56] Speaker A:** Yeah. **[54:57] Speaker A:** I think one would be. It resonates. One or two of the stories will resonate with them. Ah, that's just like my mom, just like my dad, kind of like me. That's number one. **[55:08] Speaker A:** And then so a case study, if you will, of success. And third, maybe a second would be, you know, innovation starts with a spark. There's something in your head that goes bing and offwards. You go. And you know, for example, the last, the 25th profile there is the founders of Gene Solutions, three brilliant scientists, Dr. Types, who have taken the technology within DNA sequences. **[55:34] Speaker A:** It says, okay, since we can now look at DNA in a more sophisticated way, what can we learn and how can we address that for healthcare needs? And think about how broad that scope is as technology gets more and more sophisticated on a thing like DNA, then what do you do with that technology? And so maybe there's a scientist out there saying, you know what? I'm fascinated by this DNA thing. And there's this machine that got invented by some German company that now can do this, whatever this is. **[56:04] Speaker A:** And I'm hoping that this book will spark. Well, those guys took that and built the whole thing. Maybe I can do the same thing. I guess that's. Maybe my thing is that people say I could do something like that. **[56:18] Speaker C:** Why not? **[56:18] Speaker A:** They did it. There's a case study there. **[56:21] Speaker C:** Same question. **[56:22] Speaker B:** Yeah, another humor side. **[56:24] Speaker B:** I don't think people actually, people shouldn't read the book from page one to the last page. Find a story that ignites you. There's a lot of people here that can give you that sense of not saying answers but it's okay to have self doubt. So this book is kind of encouraged the reader perspective. Not knowing about Vietnam is like gosh, like you say resonate with, well, with certain individual. **[56:54] Speaker B:** I can see that. And sometime if I can unclog that cloud of thinking and kind of say, hey, there's a solutions here and how do you clear that cloud? Allow you say aha, that is the moment. That's all I need. And it could be in any country. But because Vietnam is a place where there's a lot of opportunity, a lot of challenges and, and every day we all try to find solutions to these challenges to solve. And whoever pick up this book and think about Vietnam, oh X, Y and Z. Hopefully they keep an open mind. It's because of the challenges. We should read it how these people solving day to day challenges. So that's what I'm encouraging about different nationalities to read it, not just only vq. **[57:44] Speaker B:** And the people who demonstrated here is really coming from all diverse backgrounds. Some have school. It's not about your school background really and it's not about how you grew up and where you grew up. **[57:59] Speaker B:** It comes down to is, I go back to the phrase purpose, what do you want to do? **[58:05] Speaker A:** Right. **[58:05] Speaker B:** So that is really the book. Very good. **[58:17] Speaker C:** Thank you guys. We just have a last couple questions before we wrap up today's podcast. So, Sam, I'm going to start with you. What's one story that resonated with you personally? **[58:27] Speaker A:** Well, that's a really hard question to answer because like I said, I did 70 interviews, talked to 50 people. We chose 25, wrote up the stories if I had to choose. The one I appreciated was Jimmy Pham, the founder of Koto, because he just showed up and he was born here. Korean father, Vietnamese mother, showed up here when he was, I don't know, 25 or something like that, had nothing in life. I think he would say this. I had no purpose, no nothing. **[59:00] Speaker A:** And he met some street kids who probably tried to pick his pocket. And rather than be angry about that, he responded by saying, I got to work with these kids because these kids are just like me. I might be an Australian, but I was born here. But I'm completely lost. And these kids are not necessarily lost, but they have no home, they have no family. **[59:22] Speaker A:** I got to do something about that. And I loved the passion, I loved the, the energy, I love the innovation. Koto is the very first Social enterprise in Vietnam. He kind of sort of kick started that law of being a social enterprise because he didn't really qualify as an ngo. So I would choose, if I had to choose, I would probably choose Jimmy. Jimmy's story. **[59:45] Speaker C:** And yeah, we've had him on the podcast in the past too. **[59:47] Speaker A:** I'm not surprised. **[59:48] Speaker C:** Possibly more collaborations to come with him. Sam, over to you. Same question. **[59:53] Speaker B:** I think very similar to Sam in a sense that it's very hard to pick one particular individual. But if there's one, how I measure is my dear friend Bradley Lalonde. He has been here since the opening of banking allowing foreign enterprise to come to Vietnam. He started Citibank. He's one of the first country head and many leaders today in Vietnam in terms of the banking sector, in terms of asset liability management, capital management really trained through the system and Citibank not to promote a company. Have a large resource to train not only the leaders at the time when banking is very new and able to experience around the world from all different visit different countries and the people staff that work for cities. Now is the fabric of Vietnam. So think about the contribution of one person, one company. You have five that affect 20, 20 affects 50. **[1:01:06] Speaker B:** However you see that viral tree is going to take place and that becomes the fabric. Now after 92 when Citibank first came. There's also HSBC of course at the time. So people like that. Sometimes when we think about our role as an individual, we have something to prove. But you don't know how others are being affected and how that triggered an impact a greater part of the economy. And those are the silent leaders. And I think those are people that I actually like in a sense of. They don't do it because they want to be branded. They do it because there's reason why they want to do it because they want to enhance the people's knowledge and are able to train. **[1:01:51] Speaker B:** And I think Brad is enjoying his sunset year here in Vietnam, but he loves the country he wants to stay. So for me that is a success by itself. The impact he has done and hosts countless government bodies from the US visiting Vietnam and also ability to inform and educate some of these leaders to bring a closer tie between the countries. Some of the people that we also features came from Citibank and now running great companies. So again, if I have to choose one, I choose a close friend. **[1:02:29] Speaker A:** Okay, actually Hao, I'd like to ask you the same question. You reviewed the book? **[1:02:34] Speaker C:** Yeah. **[1:02:34] Speaker A:** You wrote a review. What story resonated the most with you? **[1:02:40] Speaker C:** That's hard to say. I don't actually remember all 25 because it's quite a bit. But if I had to pick one, this is more personal because she was actually one of the first people I met in Vietnam. Is Ying Vu. Just like, relatability, you know, I think she's still very relatively early in her career. So it's not like, you know, someone like Brad or even Jimmy for that matter. But she represents this, like, generation of Vietnamese who came back home and decided to do that. And she was like, one of the first of that generation because of her age or even my age, if you had the opportunity to live and work abroad. Actually, most Vietnamese are still abroad. **[1:03:20] Speaker B:** Right. **[1:03:21] Speaker C:** Even like my year, I'm 33 now. All the Vietnamese that went to my university, none of them, to my knowledge, are here. They're all still in the States. But if you ask new graduates today that are like in their early mid-20s, it's vastly in favor of coming back home to Vietnam. So she was one of those first generations of people. **[1:03:42] Speaker C:** Again, I know her personally, so it's a little different. I know others personally too, but it just on a personal level is somehow more relatable to me. **[1:03:50] Speaker A:** So great interview with her. I mean, each one was well over the hour. I asked them for an hour. **[1:03:55] Speaker A:** This was like two hours. **[1:03:56] Speaker C:** You got an interview with her, but **[1:03:58] Speaker A:** I can't multiple times. **[1:03:59] Speaker C:** She's just like, I'm gonna send this video clip. **[1:04:02] Speaker B:** I saw her this weekend. **[1:04:03] Speaker C:** Oh, you did? Yeah. **[1:04:05] Speaker A:** Great title. Standing on the Shoulders of Giants. And she would go on and on about, in Vietnam, we have a lot of 0 to 1 people. **[1:04:14] Speaker A:** Nothing to some kind of innovation. Not enough 1 to 10 to take something and go forward. I'm a 1 to 10 person. She says, that's where I want to be. That's where I can add value. **[1:04:25] Speaker A:** I'm good at it. And I think the B Corporation would say, yes, you are good at it. That's why you're our CEO. **[1:04:31] Speaker C:** Yeah, there's a lot of that. Not a lot, but I can see a lot of people around that same age group and experience that are now considering Vietnam or already here. So he moves one of them. One last question, guys, and we have to wrap up here. So I'm going to start with Sam over here. We have you on the program today to share some of your insights, what you've learned, and of course, contents of the book. And even about innovation, largely, more broadly speaking, what's something that you're very curious about today that you want to learn more about so that our next guest can keep you informed. **[1:05:07] Speaker A:** Good question. **[1:05:10] Speaker A:** I guess what keeps me here because I will stay here for forever basically is Vietnam has 20 years to make it to 2045. 10 years before the demographic kicks in, where they start to get old. So there's some specific markers there. I would be interested in anyone who can explain or to provide direction, hope if you will, on the hunger will remain. We're not going to get fat and lazy as Vietnamese people. **[1:05:45] Speaker A:** We are going to continue to be hungry right up until either the year 2045 or the year that we can say to the world, hey, we are now high income. We accomplished something similar that Taiwan did and South Korea did. We did it too. And the reason they may would have done it too is hunger for growth, hunger for innovation, hunger for development remained and didn't lessen. If someone could talk about that, I would be really, really interested in that. **[1:06:15] Speaker C:** I think from like a population studies, demographer approach too could be quite interesting. **[1:06:19] Speaker A:** But that's more like math. I mean, because we all know by the year 2035, give or take, the population started to decrease. China, the population started to decrease about two, three years ago. The birth rate in South Korea is phenomenally low. **[1:06:34] Speaker A:** There's no babies being born in South Korea. These are math. But go past that. What are the stories behind that? Talk to South Korean couples, why won't you have kids? **[1:06:44] Speaker A:** And they'll say money of course. But no, no, no, let's go past the money thing. What are some other reasons behind that? Whereas here I think the question would be, are you still hungry? Yes. **[1:06:56] Speaker A:** Why? You have everything. You got a nice car, you got a nice job, your kids are maybe abroad or they're studying here. You haven't been hungry for a long time, you have assets. Why are you still hungry? And hopefully they are. Why is that so? **[1:07:14] Speaker C:** Sam, same question to you. What do you want to learn more about so that we can invite a guest on this program? **[1:07:20] Speaker B:** I think integration to global stage. **[1:07:24] Speaker B:** And what does that mean? Vietnam is very good looking internally and things that we need to do. But also don't forget your neighbors. When I think about the vip, the Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines and also nearby countries as well. How do we plug in in the regional context? **[1:07:45] Speaker B:** A lot of companies, people focus day to day, very regional. I like them to think about the region rather than just collectively Vietnam. And that's where the growth comes from for Vietnam. And then that come with companies solving bigger problem for the region rather than just a domestic focus. So if There's a particular insight, someone who's going to be the next person. **[1:08:10] Speaker B:** How do we see Vietnam integrate into the grid within the region and also to the western world, whatever that western world could be in Europe, could be in America and also Latin America as well. So those are the contexts I like to see and how do you fund those opportunities and how do you see these companies can be multiplied? You need a lot more unicorns, right? And I look at some of my latest research looking at Vietnam. You have Samsung, you have number of these multinational companies contributed to countries gdp. **[1:08:56] Speaker B:** They are renters, they come in here and then they'll leave at some point if the cost escalation, oil gas price going up, labor price going up, they always find a place where they can efficiently manage the cost structure. Now Vietnam needs its own leaders and companies to replace that and you only have 5 years to 10 years to do that. So you constantly have to build rather than hunt for unicorn. It's harder to hunt, you're better off building it. And I think the countries sees that you have champions now today you have fpt, you have Masan, you have others including vingroup. But we need a lot more and I think that's kind of where I like to see the next wonderful guest you may have is what is their vision for the world? **[1:09:46] Speaker A:** Right. **[1:09:47] Speaker B:** Our I think that'll be incredible for both of us. **[1:09:50] Speaker C:** We should do like a roundtable session where you know, I can moderate, you guys discuss and anyways, we'll figure that out. Everyone, we have two SAMs on the show. Thank you Sam Van. Sam Korismo, Saigon based book writer and author. If you're curious about what other books he's written, we'll include some links in the description below. And Sam Van who runs his firm SRO Partners helping companies IPO in the States. That's a whole nother podcast too. **[1:10:18] Speaker C:** Thank you so much guys for making your time this morning and good luck on your book tour here in Ho Chi Minh City in Hanoi as well. Well, thank you very much and we'll see you guys next time. Bye. **[1:10:27] Speaker A:** Thank you everyone. **[1:10:28] Speaker B:** Thanks for your time. Yeah, thank. **[1:10:29] Speaker C:** Bye bye.