Transcript
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The commission opens the meeting, approves the agenda and minutes, and hears committee and staff reports. Updates include Age-Friendly Communities, Data Week, upcoming council items, and conference takeaways.
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Good evening everyone and welcome to the October 14th, uh 2026 East Lansing Planning Commission meeting.Mr.Bartley, could you please take roll?
I will.Commissioner Chapin.
Here.
Commissioner Denault.
Here.
Commissioner Greening.
Here.
Commissioner Lapinray.Commissioner Overbey.
Here.
Commissioner Potts.
Here.
Commissioner Ramirez-Roberts.Vice Chair Wagner.
Here.
Chair Sullivan.
Here.
We have quorum.
Thank you much.Is there a motion to approve tonight's agenda?
So moved.
Moved by Commissioner Overbey.
Second.
Seconded by Commissioner Potts.Seeing no discussion, all those in favor vote aye.
Aye.
Opposed, nay.Motion carries, agenda approved.Uh is there a motion to approve the minutes from the September 23rd, 2026 Planning Commission meeting?
So moved.
Moved by Commissioner Potts.
Second.
Seconded by Vice Chair Wagner.Seeing no discussion, all those in favor vote aye.
Aye.
Opposed, nay.Motion carries.Uh minutes approved.Takes us on to items number two and three, committee reports and staff reports.Mr.Bartley.
Uh thank you.Uh no committees of this commission have met since our last meeting on September 23rd.That's not true.Our Age-Friendly Communities meeting uh happened the day afterwards.Um we had a couple updates from various uh members.The Age-Friendly Communities Committee will be meeting with a representative of Michigan State University uh College of Osteopathic Medicine on October 30th, I believe,
Correct.
uh to discuss the possibility of establishing an Age-Friendly um center or center for aging research on campus.Uh so, we look forward to that meeting, and I'm sure I'll have more to report uh after that meeting happens.Um as I should mention, we expect your next meeting to be on November 18th.Uh so, we won't have a meeting between uh now and then.
We moved that meeting around so many times, it hardly seems fair that we cancel that at this
Uh Commissioner Chapin, did you have anything else to add about Age-Friendly
Great.Just thank you.
Um the Data Center Committee uh is a is a internal work group, but we do have two planning commissioners, uh Commissioners Greening and Putz, who have been on that work group.Um we won't have any uh meetings of the work group uh right away, but I have Data Week next week, uh which includes a community meeting about uh potential data centers ordinance that I'm hoping to to discuss inthis room on Thursday the 22nd, uh starting at 6:30, so there's information about that meeting and a lot of other um Data Week events that we have going on at cityofeastlansing.com/dataweek.We also had a print ad in the City Pulse today.And essentially, those are just uh a loosely collected group of data or data science or AI-related events uh taking place next week.The 19th, uh my community work forum on Thursday evening will be one of those.
Uh we also have a discussion by the Commission on the Environment on Monday, and several other events throughout the uh week.I'd encourage you to all to check them out and attend as you're able to.I think the the goal is to have at as informed a crowd as we can when we get together on Thursday night to talk about our potential ordinance.So, and I should mention I will not be bringing any ordinance language to the group.The idea is simply to present concepts that we've come up with, uh potentially have ordinance language in November, but I really want to see how this community forum goes first.Uh so, I think that takes care of committee reports and part of my staff report.Um as far as staff report goes, uh in addition to Data Week, I want to mention uh what happened at last council business meeting on October 6th.
Uh just a couple ordinances that were introduced and referred that you'll be seeing at your next meeting for public hearings on November 18th.Uh ordinance 1581 is a potential uh ordinance to modify how uh gas stations or auto service centers are regulated in the city.We've had several uh approvals or reapprovals in last couple years, and there was a question about do we still need uh the same regulations about gas stations.So, we've been taking a look for last few months, and I'll have an ordinance uh for your for you to check out uh your next meeting on November 18th.Uh Council also introduced and referred a conditional rezoning request uh, for a fairly large property um, north of Coleman between uh, Coolidge and West Roads.Um, I guess Coolidge Park at Road is comes in from the north sort of where Coolidge and West come together.
So just south of uh, MSUFCU's office buildings up that area.The conditional rezoning would be from uh, B4 restricted office business to RM-14 which is low density multi-family residential uh, to facilitate the construction of a religious institution uh, church.Um, which would require a special use should the rezoning go through.So that's why it's conditional rezoning.Uh, the applicants want to say we only want this rezoning if it's for this religious institution.Uh, so you'll be seeing that that conditional rezoning request come before you at your next meeting on November 18th.That's all.Uh, just last last point I want to bring up is that since our last meeting uh, the planners went to the statewide conference the Michigan Association of Plannings conference in Kalamazoo.It's an annual statewide planning conference really excellent stuff.We learned a lot uh, have came back with a lot of good ideas and a lot of not so great ideas.
I'm kidding but uh, it was a great conference and I encourage uh, if anyone's interested in anyone working in the planning and zoning space I I strongly encourage going to this conference.Uh, next one is October 6th through 9th uh, next year in Traverse City.So we'll certainly talking to the commission more about that um, as that approaches.Uh, just last last thing I'll just note that we have a lot of Michigan State University students here tonight.Go green and um, in order to get the credit for being here at the class each one of them has to speak during public comment just so you guys know.
No, I'm I'm just kidding too so uh, don't worry about that but I just want to recognize all of our uh, young planners who are here are here to get inspired.So that's my staff report.
Commissioners ask follow-up questions about downtown projects and the northern conditional rezoning request. Staff provides brief clarifications on project status and process.
Thank you.
Any questions for Mr.Bartley?
I have I do have one.
Vice Chair.
So I noticed that the Meijer gas station opened today the one on Abbott and Lake Lansing which I thought was really fast um, because it seemed like we just just approved that you know, last year last week orsomething.Um, do you have any updates on any downtown um you know, businesses like the the what's the Indian pizza restaurant?
Pizza Walla.
Or any of those?
Or Karates?
Yeah.
Um No, we we check in with other departments every couple weeks about uh ongoing projects.I don't know of any progress on Karates.Uh they have been doing a little bit of work in the back, I know, but I'm not sure what
What's the timeline?
Um Pizza Walla, I haven't heard anything.
Um like they're actively working on it.
They're working on it.Okay.The student bookstore site has come down.Demolition is well underway.Uh that's for the uh future Howard, but we I don't really have any meaningful updates unfortunately on any of the any of those projects.
On that uh conditional rezoning in the northern tier there, uh is that going to be associated with a site planner or is it What's coming That's coming before planning, right?
Yeah.Uh they have a conceptual site plan showing a building and some parking areas.Uh they're really trying not to get too detailed uh because they would call come back with a lot more detail uh if the rezoning's approved.
Okay.Thank you.Any other questions for city staff?
The chair opens commissioner announcements and public comment, but no one from the audience or online speaks. The commission then moves into new business.
Seeing none, um we'll move on to uh item number four, commissioner announcements.This is also your time to disclose any conflicts of interest on items on tonight's agenda.Any announcements or conflicts of interest disclosure?All right.Seeing none, uh that takes us on to item number five, communications from citizens.Uh written communications, I did not see any written communications in tonight's agenda packet.Um so that takes us on to item number 5.2, verbal from the audience.This is your time to come forward and address the planning commission on any items on or off tonight's agenda.We do have no public hearing, so this is your lone opportunity to do so.And if you decide to speak, please identify yourself on a card up there.So, that being said, anyone wish to come forward and address the Planning Commission?I do not have any cards.I was promised a robust and public comment period with many students.
Mr.Chairman.
All right.Okay.Uh going once, seeing none.Is there anyone online in the queue?
There are no callers in the queue at this time.
Okay.
Staff introduces the special use permit request to convert vacant ground-floor retail space into six efficiency apartments at 300 West Grand River. The applicant's history, the vacant space, and the prior denial are reviewed.
Since we have no public hearings, it takes us on to item number seven, new business.Up first, 7.1, consideration Okay.Oh, got it.It's the applicant.Uh uh item 7.1, consideration of a request from Joe Lac Riccio uh on behalf of Gateway of East Lansing LLC for approval of a special use permit to convert vacant ground floor retail space to six efficiency apartment unitsat 300 West Grand River Avenue.The property is zoned B2 retail sales business district.Ms.McCarthy.
Um so, the applicant's proposal uh is to convert the existing ground floor commercial space into those six efficiency apartments.Um the applicant does not have any site changes that are proposed.This application um came to you at your last Planning Commission meeting where there was a public hearing and there were not public comments received at that time.Um the application is not changed since then.The only difference in the packet should be that um there's the addition of a letter that was shared by the applicant at the last meeting that was given to you physically.That's now been added to the um packet for that.Um so, with this application, they are proposing to maintain the existing upper story residential and then also maintain the ground floor coffee shop, office space, and fitness center that are currently there.Um with the presentation we have, there's um a side-by-side comparison of the existing floor plan and then the proposed floor plan with the um six units within that existing retail space.
Um and then this is a more um detailed view of those three units.The only exterior changes that are proposed are um some small changes to the first floor building facade with some windows.This is the difference between the south elevation um and then this is the north elevation changes.
I think that's that's really all.The application is the same um as previously.The original building um was approved with ground floor commercial.A similar application um was proposed by the applicant in 2020 which was denied by city council.Um their denial was not done as a denial motion.Um it was a failed vote for an approval.So there was not a detailed um explanation for denials at um but from the conversation that council had the opposition was uh out of a desire to see the applicant um give some more time to see if aretail space was viable there.
Questions for Ms.McCarthy.
Quick one.So last time they mentioned um the only changes to the exterior were going to be to the window that they're adding to the the north of the property.Also I think they mentioned some HVAC split unit potentially being added to the exterior.Am I correct in that?
Yeah, I think they could speak to that better of but I think most of the mechanical stuff is going to be internal to the building.
Okay.I'll ask them when they come up here.
This point would the applicant want to come up and answer questions?
If you want to provide a a brief overview too, if there's any updates, feel free.
Good evening.My name is Dave VanderKlok.I'm president of VanderKlok Architects, past president of Studio Intrigue Architects before I sold that practice.Done several projects in your community including the HopCat Tower, the residences, the Technology Innovation Center, um Dublin Square, Spine Center, several others anyway.Uh so I've been around for quite some time in your community.I am the original architect and author of the design of this subject building, 300 Grand River as well.Um we had a good exchange at the public hearing.Uh there were several things that we discussed.I think we made it through a lot of the Q&A back and forth.Um there were some lingering things that I felt I had some homework to do while I was gone.Uh sounds like we're going to want some more information about the HVAC, so I'll I'll add that to my my presentation tonight.
Um one there was this and Ms.McCarthy's correct.This was before you the building was built 2015-2016.And the subject space that we're looking at, about 2,400 square feet, has been vacant since the building was constructed.So it's been vacant for 10 years.Um at the DDA level, there was a request for more information because as Ms.McCarthy had noted, there was a desire 5 years ago when this application came through that well, you know, maybe just needs a little bit more time.Let's put some more effort and see if we can get something on the first floor.That was the document that she was referring to that was added.We um summarized from the broker what efforts have been made since the last application came through.And she's right.The the city council it it came unanimous referral for approval from DDA and from planning commission before.
And then it was a 2-2 vote at city council and it just of course failed because of that.Um as far as the items we talked about, I felt I needed to do a little bit more homework for presentation.One is just the idea of having multifamily on the first floor.And I don't think there's anybody in the architecture community or planning community that doesn't feel that they would rather have commercial uses on the first floor.And I support that.I'm there.The problem is is there's been so much change even since this building was built and approved for commercial on the first floor.That's not unique to your community.I mean, I'm dealing with the same thing in other communities where we have vacant first floors.And 5 years ago, it's right.Everybody was like, well, you know, maybe we just need more time.
You know, we were all in the fog of post COVID fog of COVID actually at that point.And there was a lot of feeling about, well, you know, maybe remote work, everybody's going to come back to work and help our first floor needs with retail and office spaces.Um maybe Amazon will stumble.It's just there's been a lot that's changed.I mean, I think back to when I started practicing in the late '90s.I mean, I was doing an office building or retail building one every 2 weeks.Everything at the Okemos exit, everything at Saint Johns and Craigs.I mean, we were cranking them out.And through my years of practice, office and retail 60% of what I did.And it's now 6% of what I do.And the 6% is mostly for downsizing.Trying to find creative ways to keep people in their spaces um while they deal with, you know, where they have remote work and they have lack of demand.
Um same thing though.Other communities struggle with it.Ann Arbor, I'm working on a project now.It's in a mixed-use zone.And it's apartments from pavement to roof.Because there's just not the demand for the retail commercial space.And we've seen that unfortunately here with 10 years of vacant space.I'm doing another project down in Lansing.We've got an existing office tower four stories.And we're in the early conversations about converting the entire thing to single-family or multi-family housing from pavement to rooftop.It's just a harsh reality we got to deal with that we're trying to plan through and work through and make sure that we're planning for it appropriately.
The applicant explains revised window treatments, including frosted glass, mullions, shades, and operable windows to balance privacy and commercial character. Commissioners question the design and how it will feel from both inside and the sidewalk.
Um the other thing that we talked about at length at the public hearing is the thought of having these windows on the first level.Okay, if we can get past having multi-family on the first floor versus commercial, what can we do to be sympathetic to it?Privacy on the inside, but also um the look and character on the outside.If we're going to have multi-family on the first floor, how can we keep a commercial character to it uh while while protecting privacy on the inside.And I really dug into that because like I said, it's not only this project, this community that I'm dealing with this, but it's others.And so I dove into it and I did create another exhibit and I know we have a lot of other folks here, so I thought maybe I could turn the larger board around so they could see it, but
I did bring 12 copies of 8 1/2 by 11s so we can have a conversation about what I think would be appropriate with these window treatments.
Yeah, you just
I would take that on the first floor now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, shouldn't it be Joe taking these as the chair?
Yeah.
Do you have a question?
No, I was just saying shouldn't you be the one to take items from the
applicant as the chair?
I was actually going to suggest he hands them to city staff and passes it out, but it's in our hands now.
I didn't try that, Chelsea.I didn't.
Uh could you explain what we're looking at, please?
Yes.So I did is a study, looked at the building closely, and then looked at this privacy too, how the presentation was on the outside to maintain a commercial look.And I thought what I talked about last time is what we've discovered is everybody used to put these white blinds and if you I think if you squint at that the top photograph shows a miniature picture of thebuilding and you'll see all the white blinds up top and you can see them all in their various positions.And I I noted in the public hearing that what we discovered is if we use a pleated shade with a charcoal backing to it everybody don't realize that the windows on a building look black during the day.They're not nice cheery with, you know, reflections of clouds and such.Um, but what I thought we could do in addition to the pleated shades that I was talking about to maintain that privacy and that commercial character is to go in there and insert a horizontal mullion and then do
a frosted glass down below that horizontal mullion in addition to the pleated shades.And then there was also some concern in this when we addressed in fit these windows out for multi-family even though we're providing the code required fresh air through the mechanical system that everybody felt, just my assessment from ourmeeting last time, that it would really be nice to have the opportunity to open a window to get some fresh air in there.So I'm also including an operable window sash in the reconfigured window systems.I felt this was good in addressing this.I felt comfortable with this and going to apply on my other projects as well.And certainly we could I could take questions on that.Um I don't know if you want
Yeah, let's stay in this component if we can.Is any any questions from commissioners on this item?So with the other projects you've been working on you said that are have similar parameters have any been this close to the sidewalk with the windows right up on the sidewalk like this?
So the Lansing project will but I'm not that far in the planning process The Ann Arbor project is on a major transit corridor and I'm 10 ft off the sidewalk.So, I'm a little further back, but 10 ft is you know, the width of a parking space.So, it's not much different.
And explain uh the frosted glass.Is this see-through at all?Is it completely
Just translucent.
from the outside, not not able to see in or
Just an experiment with stuff that myself and my office Um I felt just being translucent, you know, you can't physically see through it, but it allows a filtered light in.Didn't make you feel enclosed.You could still pick up activity and people passing by and such.But, what it does allow you to do is during the day when like I was saying, windows are black.Um people passing back and forth, you put that buffer up at about 42 in.You could sit on your couch, still be able to have a line of sight out to the activity outside.Um but, when it got darker outside, you would have feel more privacy of being able to sit in your living room.And you have the option with the pleated shades to be able to pull those up further or put them all the way up.And I thought it was a great pairing with all these elements for the two faces that we were talking about in the public hearing.
The maintaining the commercial character, which I think is successful in the illustration, and this uh sense of privacy.
Any questions on this item?
Mr.Chair.
Mr.Chair.
Excuse me.Uh Dave, can you tell me about um it seems like the frosting is sort of meant to maybe reflect like a normal storm storefront system with a new wall.How would that How would the four I think you said 42 in?Yep.
Yep.
How would that sort of differ from what a normal new wall would be at?
Um Well, what I if I'm Okay, so what we're ended up doing is we do the frosting on the inside of glass.And then what we do is we do an applied mullion on the outside of the the Like you're probably familiar with uh applied mullions where they have the glass passes by it, but they apply them to the outsideof the glass.That's what we're talking about doing to keep a nice neat character with it.
But, the height of 42 in or 46?
Uh 42.
Okay.Okay, that makes sense.I was thinking like would it would it appear to be like a storefront?Uh except you don't want to have appearance of doors.
No, it doesn't does not appear as a door.It still appears as a storefront.It just has a frosting to it to keep it translucent.And since it's on the inside face, you still have the reflectivity of the outside face of the glass.Um and pairing all those things together, I thought it was pretty successful with keeping that commercial character.
Okay.
Thank you.
It's a good way to put it though.I like that.Any other questions on this?Question at all?
Um so, I read in the packet that um a lot of the commercial clients that have um expressed interest in this space um said that parking was a really big issue for them.Um and I guess I'm interested to hear why wouldn't these parking issues extend equally to residential uses?
Sure.So, the parking as presented in the application meets your ordinance.
It does.
Um and as a matter of fact, if it was commercial, we would not be able to meet the ordinance because what I'm proposing to you in this application requires less parking spaces than commercial would.So, the commercial would require eight.The six efficiency apartment units require four and a half.So, just in those calculations alone, there's a betterment of the condition for the parking.Um could there be some variable down the road that changes it?Yes, I do planning architecture.We're dealing with variables constantly keeping on the move.Um this particular owner does own the parking lot across Delta as well, so they do have some buffer there.
Do you have a follow-up?I'll ask a follow-up to that.So, how how are the people that are going to be running the units potentially going to be guaranteed a parking spot?Is it going to be on passes?Are they going to have a dedicated spot?Is it going to What's the ratio?
Yep.So, I went away because that was one of the homework assignment which you guys did give me.We talked about parking a bit in the public hearing.Um they're going to designate a space per studio in this case.Um in in two of those, I think they said they're going to have dedicated in the parking lot across Delta just to give them some buffer on the site for overlap, which I thought was a really good compromise.
So, essentially one-to-one.So,
Do the one-to-one, but since we're only required the four and a half, what we thought about what we're going to do is to two assigned over in the in the lot across Delta,
Okay.
and then carry the four on site, just so there's a little bit of buffer there.
What Do you know what that lot on Delta is currently used for?I I frequently see vehicles parked there.Is it Anybody can park in theory just park there, right?
I don't know the specifics of it because it wasn't part of the application, but um it's just for parking right now.
Yeah, it's leased parking.It's leased parking.
It's leased parking by the building owners of this building.
Sure, but I meant there's no barrier, so anybody in theory could just
I'm sure, but it's but it's privately permitted.
Got it.Not suggesting they do, but I'm saying what's to prevent people from just parking their vehicle there illegally?Yeah, getting towed, I suppose.Um and then are these units is it one person or one to two people per unit even though they're studios?Is that a question for you, Landauer or Ms.McCarthy?
I think it I think it's intended for one.I don't know if it meets code to have two.
They're intended for one occupant, and I don't I don't know what your ordinance says as far as what a studio's license for or whatever the measure is, but they're intended for one.
Okay.The show runner.
I have a question about the windows.So, last time we talked, thank you for for this and I was just wondering last time we talked about the interior windows.So, these are the exterior windows here.Um, but the interior windows how they open up just to a parking lot, an indoor parking lot.Is that still the plan or have they have they changed at all?
Um, I took back to my client what you guys had said and said, "Geez, you know, everybody was thinking it'd be nice to even though all the fresh air with code required fresh air was provided through the mechanicalsystem, how there was discussion about geez, it'd be nice on those nice days to crack the window."Um, they felt that way as well.So, even though we're going to maintain the fresh air through the system, you will still have the ability to get some ventilation by having an operable window in all six units.
The applicant describes the HVAC system and how fresh air will be handled without exterior clutter. He closes by framing the project as a small housing contribution in a larger housing shortage.
Um, so, okay.Okay.Yeah, thanks.
I think we're good on on the topic of parking and and windows for now.Um,
The HVAC?
Please.
Sure.Okay.Um, I did a little FAQ that's buried in your packet somewhere, but um, I can cite on this one pretty well.The systems that we're using in these studio apartments is a high efficient what we call a heat pump system, a split system.And uh, the space is very tall, so you have about 11 foot plus ceilings in the main living area and then you have lowered ceilings about 8 foot in the bathroom.On top of that bathroom, there's a small platform that that handles the air handler that that moves the air within the unit, but then you may have seen in in some smaller buildings, you'll normally see these small heatpumps where they more look like a cartridge than a large air conditioner.And that is what these heat pump systems use for these small spaces.And these don't introduce any fresh air into the system, so we can put these in the subgrade parking deck.
So, there's brackets that are on the wall, um out of the area of the parking, but they're smaller.So, they sit there.And then how we introduce the fresh air to the air handler is there's a duct that goes from the outside of the building.Um just a little four like a dryer sized intake.Um it's got to be 10 ft above the the plane of the sidewalk or any parking, so we don't bring in any you know, exhaust and such.Um but then it sucks that in and then distributes that as fresh air inside the building.So, there's no air conditioners that are parked out on pads or sidewalks or anything like that um to clutter up the outside facade of this building.
That's helpful.Thank you.Any questions in that?
Good.
Thank you.
Did you have any other updates?Or does that conclude your overview?
Um I mean, it's you know, I was talking with somebody about this in one of the other communities.Uh like I was saying at the beginning of the presentation, it'd be great to have retail commercial space on the first floor.Um I read depending on the sources, they all seem to have the conclusion we have this housing crisis, right?Uh locally, statewide, nationwide, worldwide.I mean, it's I mean, just Michigan alone I was reading the current stats are like we're 200,000 units short.I mean, this project with your support and with council support isn't going to solve or even take much of a nick out of that problem.But at least it provides us six front doors towards that goal.Um rather than continuing on with this vacant space that's lingered for 10 years.And I guess that would be it.
Commissioners seek clarification about the earlier city council action and whether it was a denial or a request to wait for retail viability. Staff explains the vote failed without formal denial reasons.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.Uh if you could sit tight, there might be a question or two that if we uh
Certainly.discuss this.Any questions for You can sit down now.We'll We can call you back up.Thank you.Any questions for city staff?Any thoughts on this?How do we want to proceed?
Yeah, I guess
before a potential motion.Commissioner Japen.
Okay.I just want a little clarification.We weren't here 10 years ago.There seems to be a little piece there with the city council.People are using different words to describe that.The city council asked you to pause and see if we did get retail there, or did they make a decision to no, we want there to be retail there?To me, that's two different things.It is 10 years later.I understand the context changes, but if you could clarify that in your words, and then I think we have some information from the city staff as well, that would be great.
Okay.I am actually leaning on the planning staff on this one because I don't have any records, nor did I have anything that detailed what the communications were in the 70 or 80 pages that I have on this
Okay.
history.So, I was just trying to reiterate what our communications have been.And if it sounded like I was giving you two separate channels or versions, I didn't mean that.
It is It's okay.I'm not criticizing you.I'm sort of trying to clarify the different inputs we have.So, I would turn out you know, the city council's different currently versus 10 years ago.Context is different.Totally understand all of that.But, have I guess in my mind, I think the retail piece is important.Have we paused long enough, and does this make sense given the current context?Is that kind of what I'm hearing from you?
Yeah, so it it was kind of a weird scenario because the the project was never expressly denied by city council.It it failed to be approved, essentially.There was a motion to approve that failed by a two-to-two vote.
Okay.So, there wasn't a set list of recorded reasons for denial, but the discussion around the application did revolve around does should we ask them to spend more time trying to get this to be successful retail.That's That's That's what the discussion was.
I'm going to I'm going to use fresh eyes on this and that's how I'm going to proceed just a Go down here.Oh.
Yeah, I think just a point of clarification, it wasn't 10 years ago this was built.Uh what?Just over 10 years ago?
16, yeah.
Yeah, it was the the proposal to change this from commercial to residential was only 5 years ago.
Okay.
Correct.So, it really hasn't been that long.
All right.Thank you.
Yeah, you bet.
Okay.
Commissioners debate whether the vacant space should remain commercial, whether housing is appropriate, and whether approving this would set a precedent. Members weigh neighborhood context, market realities, and the role of B2 zoning.
Commissioner Ruby.
So, I I I confess that I've given a lot of thought to this and if I understand you correctly, this space has been vacant for 10 years and efforts have been made during that time to to to rentit.And and in fact, we have a list of of of items and efforts that were made to rent out the the the space.Um and I When you walk down the city, there there are vacant storefronts all up and down the street.And and I support the notion of wanting to have a business in these storefronts, but the reality is it's not there.And and this is a relatively small space um and and six additional apartments I will will help the landlord and and the the and and and and the the the land owners.Um I I think it's a good idea.I don't see any reason not to support this.
Um and just as a point of of of clarification, there is no lack of student housing in the city of East Lansing.There is no unmet need for student housing.There is there is adequate student housing in in the in the city of East Lansing.I just make that as a point of clarification.That doesn't affect my view on on these apartments and that and that from my perspective we ought to move ahead with this.
Any other thoughts?
Are you looking for a motion?
Uh, I'll say yeah.I'll yeah.
Mr.Barley.
Um,
to to Commissioner Barley's point I'd just say I think it depends on who's who's asking or who's saying if there's enough housing in the city, but for for what it's worth I I did have in between this meetingand last I had a commissioner ask what's your feeling on this and generally I would say I think that it reflects what I'm hearing among the commission that we'd like to see retail if it makes sense.This this property is currently at $16 a square foot is being listed which is on the low end maybe to I see anywhere from $10 and some lower end around downtown all the way up to $38 per squarefoot.So I wouldn't say that this is excessively high as far as asking rental rate that's what I'm looking at right now.Um, so I just want to make that point.
In general if if we can avoid ground floor residential in the middle of a business district I think planners generally want to see that.This is not in the middle of a business district it's sort of on the fringe and so I just wanted to make that point real quick.Thank you.
Can I ask a question?
So how do we discriminate against I mean I'm worried I think this meets the code I'm you know whatever I think we could probably pass this, but what about other businesses who want to change downtown to to allI mean I think they get rid of some of the mixed elements.I mean, it would become all student housing on the first floor.And how do we say you can do it, but you can't?I mean, do we set it Do we say this is a business district only, or do we set say these five blocks on Grand River cannot do that?I mean, I do worry about I don't want to have student housing on the first floor of every block on Grand River.Um this case seems to be okay because it's off Grand River, but I think that would be um I'm just worried about the precedent setting, and I think I'd like to talk about it and see what you all
think.
I have that listed down, too.You know, I I I will say I think it's fortuitous that this is on the agenda before we discuss some of the future land use map stuff and and sort of those Forget the term that's on there, butthe transit corridors, I think you framed it, and this is kind of on the edge of of one of those, and I think that's some interesting context.Commissioner Donnell.
Um This is, I guess, maybe a question for city staff, but if we look at the B2 district, um what are some uses that are allowed by right in that commercial space?Um I uh I think I asked my question because to me, so I walk past this space um several times a week because I live in Glencairn, um and I lament that it is always vacant, that it hasalways been vacant.Um but at the same time, I also wonder if we can't get a commercial client in that space, is there maybe a role that it could play in being a community space, right, for residents?Right?Like full-time East Lansing city residents, right?And so, I think my question for staff is does it have to be a commercial use?Can it be a community use?Is there a Does B2 sort of distinguish between these uses, or is that more to the discretion of the person who's leasing it?
Um yeah, if I may be uh I would say commercial use is probably not going to be a profit generator.So, if there's some way to pay for that community use, then it would could make sense.But, I don't know of a funder or a need for that right now.Um, and just really quick to to just speak to Commissioner Wagner's question, I think that uh, the case-by-case approach is is probably appropriate.And in B3, I mean, this is a B2 district.And a B3 is sort of downtown core.We have down our ground-floor residential especially use, and I think that's appropriate cuz especially use says, "This is not permitted across the board.This does require case to case case-by-case review."Um, but it doesn't prohibit it.It has a public review step, and I think that's that's how you can approach sort of important questions like this.
Uh, if that if that answers that.And Commissioner Donnell, I'm not sure if I addressed your question.I guess as far as community space, I mean, the B2 district is quite permissive as far as the range of of uses.It's it's meant for commercial, retail, uh, I'd say retail business, uh, more than anything else.Uh, allows for offices.Um, bakery, bank, theater, office, dental laboratory, medical, general professional professional office, hotel, motel, personal service shop, restaurant, etc.So, it's it's quite right wide ranging as far as what you could put in there.Um, community center I think we probably have to look at separately, but that would be up to the applicant to ask.
Right.Right.Okay.It's a great point, though.Um, any other comments?I wrote down a few, so.Um, just candidly, I just I I don't like this for a lot of reasons.
Yeah.
My own personal opinion, and I'll get into sort of how I think I'm going to land on this, but, you know, we are in a post-COVID world.Um, this was contemplated as retail space when the market was was very different.I hate that it's vacant.It's close to my house, as well.Um, you know, 5 years ago I was on Planning Commission when we had those discussions.I think previously the initial draft of this proposal had had the entrances for the actual units off of the street, and I really hated the concept of that.I think that's significantly worse than what's before us.Um but you know, a few factors at play here.It's It's not downtown.I think that leads to it being difficult to to lease.I think the parking situation is valid.Um I also appreciate that there already is commercial space in the building with the the bank unit now, Bigby, that's on the the end of that site.
Um but I agree with Vice Chair Wagner.I do not want a slippery slope of like this becoming a trend, and I think the circumstances are different enough here that I I I can tacitly support this.Um but I I I do not want this to become a trend.Um I do not I think they can simply make more with rental units.So, you know, in theory, downtown a decade from now, if if uh the commercial market's even worse, you could have a lot of these sorts of of splits for those spaces, and they could make significantly more, and uma trend could be to build it as uh proposing commercial space.Um you know, I don't know how hard they're promoting it behind the scenes, and then not lease it, and then uh come to the Planning Commission and city to try to transition it to uh rental units, uh which
I think is a concern I have.I think we're absolutely going to need uh a few conditions here.I think the parking is different enough for this site.It's not near a grocery store.I think you need at least one vehicle per unit.It's not in the heart of downtown.Uh and the biggest concern I have remains, and I think some of that's been somewhat alleviated, although I think we need a a strict condition on making it so you can't see directly into these units from the sidewalk,because the sidewalk walks right by.Families walk by there.There's a daycare at at People's Church right there.Um there's families that walk their dogs through there in the middle of the day, and um I think it needs to be even above and beyond what's here, and I'm trying to think of the best way in my
mind to to phrase what that condition should look like, but Commissioner Dinolt, I see you And a hand up over there, so
I think I um and you live in in my neighborhood, too, so you understand this, I think.Um but I think one of the things that really is has been frustrating me about the conversation around this location is that we assume that all retail and commercial uses should be in downtown.And you know, I've been trying to think a little bit more about how do we build commercial or retail uses in our neighborhoods, right?That are more accessible, that we can walk to, that you don't need a car for.Um and so I think I would just challenge us to not get caught up on the fact that it's just outside of downtown as the reason that it's not successful.Um that I think there are hundreds of um residents both in the Glencairn neighborhood and you know, on the south side of Grand River um who would walk or could bike to a retail um use if if it
was interesting to their and catered to their needs.Um so I think that's the I'm that's the one point that I would maybe challenge us to think slightly differently about.You know, I think I would point to the new Mot- -ki Not that just opened across the street, right?That is definitely not hurting for customers, um despite practically having no parking except for that little side lot.Um and so I think I would just challenge us to change our thinking a little bit about where commercial and retail should go in the city.
The commission crafts a motion with conditions on window treatments and parking passes, then votes on the special use permit. The motion passes 4-3 and the item advances to city council.
I think you're right, and I think it epitomizes how there's just a big gap for parking in the west end of downtown, and if we're going to be deliberately trying to put commercial spaces there, it needs to beaddressed in some way, shape or form.Um I didn't say this, but this is also in my notes, too.I do appreciate that it's a unique market with studio apartments that are ground level and will um give access to potentially handicapped individuals that would benefit them.There just isn't really a lot of that in the communities.I think that is adding something as well that's above and beyond what you typically see for typical rental units downtown.So, I don't know.I think that's about all I had to say on it.Um What's the will of the commission?Any more comments?Potential motion?
I think we're ready for a motion.
Okay.Sounds like a volunteer effort.
I was hoping it'd be Where's Josh tonight, you know?
Josh isn't here, so somebody's going to have to step up.
I'll take it.Um I'm going to make a motion to recommend approval to city council for the special use permit request from Joe uh Lariccio on behalf of Gateway of East Lansing LLC including site plan approval for the conversion of existingcommercial space to six efficiency apartment units located at 300 West Grand River Avenue.This decision is based on the quote findings and determination to recommend approval of special use permit for 300 West Grand River and the conditions of approval and quote dated October 14th, 2026, which are attached to the AIR forthis agenda item and incorporated into this motion for this reference.I'm going to pause there.I think you wanted to add some conditions.Uh
Yes.Um so, I would propose adding one condition and Landon, you're going to have to help me with this one.Um that that How do I how do I rephrase the inside of the units is not visible from street level.This can be accomplished with film or other How would we phrase that in your professional opinion?
Professionally I'd be looking for complete opacity.
there's no way to look in or out.
able to see into those units from street level.
I guess beyond what the applicant's already proposing as far as frosted and curtains, you're saying zero visibility.
said frosted up to 42 in.
Mhm.And then curtains above that.
Yes, and the interior.
opaque.
Yes.
That you cannot see in or out the windows.
Yes, while also permitting light into the unit.
So let me let me May I add a comment on in relation to that?
to word smith this as well.
Okay, I I I understand that.
I'm now going to rent this unit.I I'm not going to rent it if people can see inside.So there's a perspective at the planning commission table.I think there's a perspective from the uh the renter, the the person who's going to live in the unit.And I don't think he or she is going to be uh pleased with that unit if there is too much um too much visibility inside of that room.I think what has been proposed tonight addresses that.Knowing that you can have a shade there that goes up or down, um I think addresses that.Um and so I I add that concern on top of that.I think there's a different perspective that's here in addition to what we see at the planning commission table.My thought.
I agree that this does address this, but we can't just say according to the document presented to the planning commission.So I'm trying to think of a way to word smith the guarantee that what's proposed here gets put into the
Oh, I see.All right, I misunderstood that.I thought you wanted more than this.
No, I think this is
Okay.
Yeah.
Well, we can pause on this.I'm let's figure it out.
I think I wanted to understand your position but
what's being proposed here for the windows as a condition?
Okay, I see.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that your simple condition of that the applicant or the
The applicant wants to see the city staff plans and visibility for the inside of the units.
I mean, I think that the the um the window treatment as as uh presented at the October 14th, 2016 uh planning commission meeting according to testimony shall be installed.
Okay.
I think that's fine.
I'm I'm okay with that if you think that's sufficient.
get that?
I Do you mind?
No, go ahead.
Um I think just as again, as someone who passes these units um several times a week um I actually
if I'm being if I'm being picky and right thinking about privacy concerns, like I actually feel like even this I feel like I would be in someone's living room basically, right?Sitting on their couch with them.Um I think if we look at the three levels of windows, I I would actually like to see the frosting up to the Yeah, 2/3 of the three.
Mr.Chair.
Mr.Bradley.
Uh Commissioner Donald, I'm I'm a little concerned that uh that would that would restrict any visibility into or out of the unit.And it it and so if if the blinds were lifted or dropped, I guess, if they're bottom ups.And but you still have translucent uh panes, then you have up to perhaps I I'm not sure about the height at 6 or 7 ft of no transparency, just translucent, just light coming through.Whereas right now with the bottom up blinds, the the tenant has the option to see out of the window still when the blinds are down.And you would you're proposing to remove that possibility?
Yeah.
Yeah, my understanding was you could see out of the units but not into the units.
The frosted you're not going to be able to see out through the frost either way.
Yeah, I was I was going to say I I there are several decon- not de-conversions but old commercial spaces um in my former neighborhood in Chicago that were
up to 2/3 translucent, right?So, you're still getting the natural light in from the top third but you're really prioritizing the privacy both from the person who's walking past on the street and the person who's living in that unit while still getting thenatural light of a translucent window treatment.So, I think I I think I would lean lean 2/3.
Mr.Bartley, let me rephrase it another way.So, I think the concern that we have is is obvious.Uh in in your professional expertise, how would you rectify that concern through a motion?
Uh to me what's presented seems seems like it provides enough privacy.You have you have translucent, which means you can't see it's your little bit of light can come through on the the lower part, 46 in.Above you have blinds, so they're user controlled.So, the user can determine how much light and visibility they want to have for that that section.And above that is clear and open.So, it's just light coming through but no visibility.It's presumably outside of most I don't know where the word falls compared to my eyes but outside of most people's vision.So, I don't plan on walking too close to these units but I guess I wonder if if if the concern is enough that you would remove the tenant's ability to still be able to see out by requiring thetranslucency to go all the way up to above their eye height, which is what I think you're proposing.
Is that correct?
Yes.
Okay.
This is all
Yeah, Commissioner Chairman, I can I think I think I think the occupant the occupant um would want to control what he or she can see.And I think this is really a a really good middle-of-the-road um but I'm picturing myself as the occupant or a guest of the occupants.There is something going on outside on the street.We've acknowledged it's pretty close to street traffic not being able to raise the uh the curtain or the shade to see what's going on would be um I I wouldn't like that as an occupant.So, you know, there's another opinion right, wrong, or indifferent, but I think we have to trust the occupant after we put what we have in front of us in place to control what he or she can can see.And I think this is a an excellent solution.So, there's a counterpoint uh and we don't have to agree unanimously, but and I think this is all healthy.
So, anyway, there's my opinion.
I understand what you're saying.I mean, me personally as the suggester of this, I think after hearing what Landon had said and and and Commissioner Chapin had said, that makes the most sense given that it will be about 48 in tall and childrencan't see in it and that was my biggest concern.Mr.Overby.
If I could just make a comment, I I live in the neighborhood.I walk in the neighborhood after dark.This is not student neighborhood.And you see all sorts of things that people's homes from the street and when they when their windows are up and I would say about half of the neighbors close their curtains and the other half just carry ontheir business.You can see what they're doing in their kitchen.You can see what they're making for dinner.I I just give you that as a point of reference that in in the neighborhoods the privacy is dependent on you taking some action to to achieve that and and that many people don't do that.
I don't disagree.I'm so sorry.Mr.Chair.Um I don't disagree.Also being a dog walker at night.
Um but but I think there is a the yard acts as a buffer, right, between the sidewalk and the the living room, right?Um so I can see that my neighbor is maybe watching TV, but I can't see what they're watching.Whereas this is right up on the sidewalk.Um so I I that's the only reason I would maybe push back a little bit and and ask us to
create conditions that allow for a little bit more privacy both for the person in the unit, but especially for the people who are walking past.But again, it's not my motion.Um I will you know, I I don't plan on voting yes anyway because I feel like this is still really valuable as a commercial space for people in the neighborhood.So, I guess
So
Take what I Take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.
So, go ahead.We have a
At this point I just I I I I understand that perspective.It makes a lot of sense to me, but for simplicity I'm going to keep the original friendly amendment to this motion that I had suggested.And I think Landon you had framed it as as the the the window treatments as the applicant proposed during the October 14th, 2026 Planning Commission meeting.Do I need to say anything else in your opinion?Okay.And then if we want to modify it further, we can after the the main motion is made.
So, the the main motion
suggestions to tweak it, but that's my motion to add to that.And then um quick question for the applicant if you can come up.I wanted to ask you about parking cuz that was going to be my other uh friendly amendment.Um Could you guarantee six uh parking passes for the six units?Is that agreeable?Okay.That would be my other uh friendly amendment is is um a minimum of six parking passes within a two-block radius provided for this tenant's proposal for the tenants of this proposal.
For the tenants of this proposal.
Okay.Thank you.
So, we would add two conditions.
Yes.That I'm asking.Yeah.
So, I would I'm not sure if I'm active or not.I'm thinking I'm active, but if I'm not, let me know.So, the motion is still active yes period with conditions.Uh
If you want to add them to your motion, yes.
Yes, I would like to add those to my motion.Um and so, could you repeat those two motions?
Yes.
Please.
So, um condition one, window treatments are provided as proposed during the October 14th, 2026 Planning Commission meeting according to the handout.Uh and then the second condition would be a minimum of six parking passes is provided are provided for the tenants within a two-block radius.
Great.
I think just a point of clarification because we're referring to this handout, but because it was just handed to us and is not part of the packet, is there a way that it will be publicly available?Okay.
Okay.
Thank you.Great great question.Okay.
Okay.
That's all I got.Thank you.Thanks for the patience in working through that with me.
No, it's good good discussion.
Okay.
So, there's a motion on the table.
Motion on the table by Commissioner Chapman.Is there a second?
Second.
Seconded by Commissioner Overbey.Any further discussion on this motion?
I think just that oh
Commissioner Denault.
Thank you.Um you know, I think I've made my feelings really clear about wanting to continue to try to use this space either as a retail or commercial space or if that's not working right to turn into the community thatit stands in to say what can we put here that serves the community in a better way.And I understand that that probably takes a little bit more effort and outreach than a landlord wants to put in, but at the same time you might get a more sustainable business.Um and I think just to remind us that this zoning district, right?The B2 district is is really really exists to provide that variety, and I want to really lean on that word variety of retail stores, personal service shops, restaurants, offices.And I understand that that's a real challenge for the applicant.I think they've done a good job demonstrating that, but I also think that um if we want to
sort of maintain what that district was meant to be, that we should keep trying.So, I think that's just what I would lean towards.
And I appreciate
I think that's valid.Any other comments?Okay.Uh Mr.Bartlett, could you would you please do a roll call on this one?
Excuse me.Uh we have a Uh we have a motion uh made by Chapin, seconded by Overby, uh to recommend approval to the planning or to the city council of the allocation as presented including uh conditions that the window treatmentsas presented during the October 14th planning commission meeting shall be installed.Uh and then a minimum of six parking passes uh for six units shall be provided within a two-block radius.And we'll uh make sure to massage those words to to match exactly what was said here tonight.
Okay.
And we have it all on camera.Uh so, with that motion on the table, Commissioner Chapin, how do you vote?
Yes.
Commissioner Denault, how do you
No.
Commissioner Greening?
Yes.
Commissioner Overby?
Yes.
Commissioner Putz?
No.
Vice Chair Wagner?
No.
And Chair Sullivan?
Yes.
And the eyes have it.
What was the vote tally?
Uh I have
Four four three.
Four to three.
Yeah, okay.By a four three vote, um item 7.1 passes and is now on to a to be determined city council meeting for consideration.
Staff reopens discussion of the future land use vision statement and equity framing. Commissioners refine wording to better reflect development, redevelopment, and inclusion.
Thank you.
Thank you.Okay, that takes us on to the unfinished business portion of tonight's agenda.Up first, item 8.1, continue discussion about future land use map categories.Is Mr.Barkley
Thank you.Uh so, bringing back this item from previous previous meetings.We've been talking about this for several months.Um I think the discussion has been great.Uh personally, I I I really appreciate the amount of thought that the commission keeps to bring bringing to this table as we discuss future land use categories.It's certainly something we want to uh get right.Um since the last meeting on uh September 23rd, there were a couple of uh requests, adjustments I want to bring up real quick.First, uh discussion about the vision statement um that was discussed a little bit at the last meeting uh and as I pull that up, again, the the the idea behind the vision statement is essentially to help frame frameyour thinking as we approach this future land use question.So, I'd originally pre- presented the vision statement as saying, "Our neighborhoods are stable and future-ready with housing options for people at all stages of their lives."
Uh and then in conversation with uh Commissioner Chapin and other commissioners, uh we discussed alternatives to this last uh at the last meeting.And I just wanted to bring this back if there was interest in still discussing the vision statement, if you still felt like uh modifying it.Again, you're sort of noting that the vision statement, I don't expect this to be printed anywhere, right?We don't we don't need to adopt this as an official motto.It's it's really just to frame our thinking.So, I I wanted to bring that back.Uh there had been a request to to bring it back, make sure it was sent out to all the planning commissioners.So, I wanted to give time to that tonight if if there's interest in still discussing the vision statement.Any any thoughts on the vision statement before I keep moving.
Thoughts on the vision statement.
So, I just want to Yeah, I sort of initiated that and I I'm very comfortable with the conversation that we had.Uh just back and forth.I do not want this to slow us down uh because there there's a big piece of pie out there and let's let's tackle the piece of pie and not get caught up here.But, I thought the conversation was good.I appreciated being able to kind of bring that into the conversation uh but I don't I don't want that to slow us down too much.
Commissioner Denali.
Sorry, I wasn't at um our last meeting so I didn't get to uh participate in the discussion.Um I think I would only um ask us to rethink the um la- the second time that we say uh people in all stages of their lives.Uh my former dissertation advisor would tell me not to use the same language twice in the same sentence.Uh
Elliot Elliot Gorn, if you're listening out there.Um it's still in my head.So, uh and I wonder if um maybe a more I like the all stages of their lives um in the context of neighborhoods because right?People from all stages of their lives live in neighborhoods.Um but I like the idea of development and redevelopment opportunities exist to maybe something like um support um I don't know.Um I I'm thinking more of like social equity here rather than people at stages of their lives like a wider range of people.Um but Yeah.
Excuse me.
I don't have specific I don't have like ready to go language here.But, I'll noodle on it during the meeting.And if I come up with a
Reading the first one, so it says our our neighborhoods are stable and future-ready with housing options for people in all stages of their lives.Development and redevelopment opportunities exist to support people in our community or just our community.I think is a nice way to close that out instead of saying stages of our lives lives twice and so I think that's sort of a nice middle ground that captures the intent of what you were trying tosay.
Exactly.Let me Let me also to say I repeated that only because it was good language to begin with and I didn't want to chaponize it, you know?Who wants to do that?So, uh that's why I kept it in there, but absolutely it should be I would agree with your dissertation supervisor.Hard to disagree with one.
And I didn't disagree with them.
Well, I think it's a little closer, so
Yeah, I like that a lot.I think that makes sense, so Okay.I think we're good with that item, Mr.
Then if I if I may, I'll move on.That was a great segue to talk about equity cuz I wanted to include these equity questions.As you know, the social equity was sort of the lens that we looked at for the last comprehensive plan update that was adopted last August and I wanted to bring those sort of questions that that element back.Um Uh actually was a student I I I talked to a class a few weeks ago that said, "How do you How do you in incorporate equity into your decision-making?"I said, "That's a great point, you know?"And I'm not sure that we explicitly do.And so, I've been trying to sort of think about these questions as I approach planning questions, decisions.Essentially just asking myself these four.And And there could be many questions.These are just sort of the ones that I think of, right?
So, why are we doing this?What is the basis for for our decision or our activity right now?Just the question.And by the By the way, these are not meant to be answered.I mean, they're they're all going to be answered independently, right?But why are we doing this and who's going to benefit?Who are we doing this for?In the In the Along the way, who could be hurt by this?That's I think a question that a lot of people don't ask.Who and who's missing from this conversation?And so if we can sort of think about that uh you know, I'll bring this up a lot and I when I'm talking about well students for sometimes in age-friendly communities we talk about seniors who aren't necessarily atthe table.There are a lot of different folks and we talked about that earlier in the in the conversation.
We were talking about incomes versus housing prices for example and I I tried to sort of show a range of potential people hypothetical people that could be living in East Lansing saying what is their hypothetical income?How does it relate to housing prices?Who who are we not listening to?Who who is not shown up to these meetings?Uh who can't make it to these meetings?Who can't be participating for some reason?So I just kind of wanted to toss that out there and say hey let's not forget about them because it's very easy for us to sort of approach things from our personal perspective.I do it all the time.I think this is a chip on my shoulder about renters, right?Because I'm like hey man, I rent.Where is where where what is this I I get this feeling sometimes.Why are we why do we feel like we're anti-renter?
Why are you anti-me?Because I rent, right?I don't need to take it that way.I can take it much more holistic viewpoint.And so I think that we could all do well to just sort of step back for a second and say okay just who's here, who's not here, who's benefiting, who's not benefiting.And that's really the only reason I I brought this up tonight just so we can sort of still have that in the mix as we think about these categories.
Staff presents revised future land use categories with visual examples and explains distinctions among city center, mixed-use center, gateway commercial, neighborhood center, and residential types. The discussion focuses on simplifying the map and making categories more intuitive.
Uh before I move on any comments or thoughts or questions on that?Okay.
No, I like it.
Uh thank you.Then I I'll scroll on down to the thing you've seen many times.Uh this is sort of my initial uh initial um recommendation for different land use types.And we've had a a decent amount of discussion about each one.Um and had had had the commission had asked for more detail on uh various um uh I guess various categories and how they might differ in in any cases.And so I wanted to give a little bit of a little more color I guess as as far as how I envision these.This seemed to be uh in discussions in the last couple meetings of the commission or saying I hear what you're saying I need help more help visualizing and understand the differences.And so I wanted to bring some visuals.I mentioned at the top of my AAR a while we we I've been working with a graphic designer and they're so busy.
They said I want to do custom, you know, sketches, but I don't have time.And I said great, I will go find some examples.So I tried to provide a few examples from our our example form based code that had been introduced a few years back.Unfortunately wasn't adopted, but also I have a few more today that I want to bring up on the screen.That might help visualize what at least what I'm thinking.But pointing to these categories.I think city center is fairly straightforward, right?Downtown.There has been a question about how does mixed use center compared to city center or gateway commercial?Um I guess and I looked at I see I see the major differences here as form.You know, they're sort of all commercial intent.So you would have commercial uses.Uh the difference is their density, their height, their say auto orientation versus pedestrian orientation or transit orientation.
Uh that's sort of the difference that differences in form will get to us will bring us to I guess.So the city center you're going to have higher buildings.Right now we're topping out around 12 stories downtown.The mixed use center I also I also kind of envisioned a little more density, a little less parking need, probably a little more height.I wrote six to eight stories and I'm kind of rethinking that actually after I wrote this AAR thinking I don't know if I was actually thinking that high density.I think maybe six stories is all right.Four to six stories.I have a sense just from my experience in the town the last three years that eight stories might be a little hard to stomach for a mixed use center that might be closer to neighborhoods.Gateway commercial I see as more auto oriented and probably a little more lower density.
In fact, let me pull up some of these pictures that I I meant to show.UmOkay, and I I I inclu- included a couple um in in your from the form-based code that East Lansing had proposed in your AIR, but I have a couple of uh different ones that I want to show rightnow.Okay, so oops.
Here's a form-based code example.Oh, it's not.Give me a second, please.
Here is a form-based code example.From a town not too far away from us uh that has a form-based code, they have this picture showing a city center.And I figured that this does not look like East Lansing center city, but it gives a good idea of what this is, right?Fairly high-density buildings, uh parking does not not dominate landscape.You see a parking garage sort of tucked in behind some of the buildings uh sort of left center.Um but this is high-density, high commercial use, pretty high-intense business district, right?Scrolling down a little bit.Want to give you an idea of mixed-use center.Uh if you recognize these from a different city, uh don't worry about that.This is illustrative only.Uh so again, this is showing it's kind of uh it's it's it's based around an intersection, right?It's a little higher density.
The parking is pushed off to the back.You have multiple stories, typically three, sometimes higher.Again, I mentioned that I could see up to maybe five or six, probably six stories.Um as a little more little more intensity, but the idea is it's sort of a node in the network, right?You have node of streets and intersections, and at the nodes, the intersections, you have some commercial packed in around that corner.That would be a mixed-use center to me.versus the gateway commercial Just scrolling down.This is a little more low intensity.It's just showing the parking up in up in front.It's sort of more auto-oriented.And so when I when I bring up different ideas of how I see certain areas as more of I tend to see a gateway commercial as more of a auto-oriented corridor.I could see it at um I think I mentioned Abbott and Saginaw.
I think that that's kind of a gateway commercial area.It's more auto-oriented.Uh East Grand River, closer to Hagadorn, Um technically that's part of the DDA district, but you know, do you consider it city center or more of a gateway commercial look?And again, you know, the the zoning might be one thing, we're looking at future land use categories, so it's not necessarily going to match up all the time.I see Trowbridge business district as Honestly, this is an interesting one.I see it as sort of gateway commercial because of its proximity to the interchange, the highway 496 and 127 interchange.But I think it could go go both ways, honestly.It's it's It's got the got the bones that it could be a little more mixed-use center.There are some significant redevelopment opportunities, significant infill opportunities in that area.Could kind of go both ways, but I still see, at least in the near future, most of these areas as being more gateway commercial.
East Lansing tends to be a little bit auto-oriented in my view.We we have a lot of state highways running through town, right?And and relatively little transit.The bus system is heavily used by students, but that's about it.So, so I think that we're probably going to see more gateway commercial just sort of naturally.But again, we're thinking all the way down the road, right?This this future land use can be 10 years out, 20 years out.You know, I wouldn't say go further past that.You know, at 25 to 50 years out, it's not going to happen.Things are going to change between now and then, so I suggest a little bit shorter time scale.But if we're looking at 10 years out, what could this look like?What could What could a a business district evolve evolve into over time?Um The neighborhood commercial I wanted to bring up, I think it's probably worth dropping that one, honestly.
I talked about neighborhood commercial as sort of an idea of very small-scale commercial, one-story buildings, for example, maybe one or two or three of them clustered around, really focused on people from the neighborhood walking on down to getwhatever might be a boutique or ice cream store or something like that.Lovely thought.I think there was interest among the commissioners about that.There was also interest in maybe we could combine that with another district.There was a discussion about mixed-density residential.I proposed neighborhood residential and mixed-density residential.What if we introduced or allowed the introduction of very small scale commercial into the mixed density residential?I heard that from commissioners, and I think that is worth looking into.Uh Commissioner Potts, you had had a question or comment.
you said neighborhood commercial.Did you mean neighborhood center?
That's what I meant.Thank you.
Yeah.
Uh neighborhood center um had just been
No, makes sense.
one of my proposals.Um Let's see.
That was That was my concern, I think, at the at the previous meeting we had is the the lumping of a lot of those categories in the top end of this uh this scale here that were pretty similar.So, I think that accomplishes the biggest concern, and I tried to nitpick the rest of the categories, and that was really sort of the the area I was having the most consternation.
Yeah.Uh and I don't want to overcomplicate things.Certainly, point point of the Part of the exercise for me is that we have a lot of categories right now.I don't I don't know if we need that many.So, reducing is all right.Um as far as research technology office, uh I have a sort of another sketch.It looks like an office park if you if you imagine an office park.I'll pull it up to see if this is what you imagine as office park, but um I don't reallyresearch technology office I could see as being uh combined as well.We talked about that, I think, with um the civic or civic uses, institutional civic or special.
Institutional special, yeah.
Um but this is kind of what I envision for research technology office.This might be a little higher density than some might envision.Uh I kind of like to allow for some market flexibility.If there's if there's interest, or we just had a gentleman talking about how office has been or commercial has been very difficult on the ground floor.I I think that there are possibilities where we can say, "Hey, we have flex buildings here, but we're realizing that we need to modify how we do it."So, to me, this is a really flex district.Sort of commercial uses can go into this, office uses, industrial uses, research commercialization.Um sort of almost catch-all for uh But But But that's also where I kind of see a difference between the research technology and the office, whatever you called it, and the institutional special is that I kind of see
a private versus public kind of implication at least there.I'm not sure if it is strong enough to warrant separate categories, though.So, I want to consider that.And then finally, while I'm on sketches, um I'll just bring up Here's kind of what I'm envisioning as far as neighborhood residential.Largely lower intensity, lower scale, one, two, and three family likely.Uh I would I would strongly recommend against having a uh future land use category that is single family only.Uh for the same reason that market conditions change.Uh what what is true now or seems to be true now can or will be different in 5 years.And I think we need to allow for for a mix of density or mix of residential types.I do think there's space for low-density residential versus higher.And I think we can draw that line.We got to figure out where that that line will be drawn, but that's how I see the difference between neighborhood residential and mixed-density residential.
I also have a little bunch of little accessory dwelling units in the back.They could be detached garages, they could be accessory dwelling units, but I wanted to throw those in there.Or that's why I picked this this picture because I think that's a housing type that we don't see very much often, and there has been a lot of interest in those since the comprehensive plan update process.And then finally, I have a one more picture where I'm just showing what I could see as mixed-density residential, a little bit larger apartments, but you also have uh scattered through of smaller one- and two-family houses.So, really true to its name, mixed-density, where we allow higher we allow lower as well.
Commissioners respond to the proposed categories, suggesting consolidations, clearer definitions, and better labels. They discuss keeping neighborhood centers, combining green space categories, and refining institutional and research-related uses.
Any questions about any of the sketches that I've shown?Should I go back to the table?Um And I'm going to I'm just really interested in uh sort of the planning commission's comments here on how you're feeling about these.Oh, there have been a discussion about parks and open space saying, "Hey, change the initials."Number one, but also natural systems, do they need to be separate?"I had seen a a kind of a similar thought where I was thinking public versus private.I sort of see like recreational use in park parks and open spaces versus leave it alone, this is nature, these are natural systems in the natural systems category.But I'm not sure that those need to be separate categories to make that work.You can also say this is where the green green space or green infrastructure is in the city.Um so with that, I I I'm always talking too much on this.
I want to take your comments and your thoughts.Any questions or comments, thoughts on what I've presented so far?And then I just wanted to mention, we talked about overlays at one point.Uh I want to mention that they're still there.If there's interest, I suggest overlays are not quite land use overlays as much as sort of a special overlay saying, "Hey, these are going to be priority redevelopment or we want to support certain economic sectors, whatever it mightbe."But those can be overlays onto the future land use map.I just wouldn't make those land use space if it's an overlay cuz that will just confuse things.So with that, any
Who wants to go first?Vice Chair you want
I just have a quick question, Landon.How many uh categories would you say is ideal for this?I I think we talked about last time, but I know there's no magic number, but what do you think?
You know, I I talked to a city in Michigan recently.Uh the the deputy planning director who had they've recently adopted a comprehensive plan with three categories, and they thought that that was too few probably, but they're kind of waiting to see how it shakes out.I tend to agree.I'm saying, "Hey, what's what's the real difference here?How do you how do you really know how to what these mean, I guess?"Um and I think there could be some sort of practical difficulty that way.I tend to see like six to 10 being a good sweet spot.Um I think I showed a an example from State College or there was one of 18.I think that's probably too many.And that's kind of where we're at right now um in our current future land use.So I think if you can get down to single single digits, lovely.
Um around that area.But it really depends on how what makes sense for your city.There's no this is what you should be aiming for.
It's somewhat confusing, too, because there's like subcategories in some of these categories, too.But I think we're getting close to what the sweet spot is, but Uh, Din Alto.
Oh, yeah.Um I was just going to say I do like the idea of putting um, parks and natural systems together, maybe.Um, I think originally I was not in that camp, but um, I think it makes a lot of sense if we're looking for places that we want to consolidate.Um, I also really like the research, technology, and office sort of lump category.Um, because I think you're right, it does allow for a lot of flexibility as to like what's actually being used done in those spaces.I think the one place or the one um, category that I would really try to advocate for us keeping, even though I think you're right that there's not a lot of instances of this right now in East Lansingis that neighborhood center, right?I I do really I I think one of the things that I have really enjoyed about living in East Lansing is that our neighborhoods are so um, strong and have really great identity, and um, I would like us
to maybe in the future have retail and commercial opportunities that are part of our neighborhoods.Um, and so even though I think you're right, there's not a lot of locations now, I can think of maybe a handful in Glencairn, um, that would maybe match up with this, but in some ways maybe it's anopportunity for us to be aspirational, um, and to signal that we're looking for that kind of development in the future, or that we're prioritizing that kind of development.Um, but also maybe we start mapping these things and we're like, oh gosh, there is absolutely none of this.So, um,
It's about what we want, too.
Yeah, exactly.Yeah, and that's what I'm saying.I I think it if it's something we want, and maybe that's a discussion that we can have as a planning commission.Maybe I'm the only one who's who wants to walk to a coffee shop on a Saturday with their dog.Um, and that's fine.Um, but I if it's something that we want, then maybe having a category for it is is a good idea.Yeah.
So to be clear, you like it as a separate category because it really signals that this is a desirable thing for the community, not necessarily because the traits are much different than the other one.I see what you're saying.
Yeah.
Uh any comments on on the header, I guess any of the categories, Mr.Chapman?
Yeah, no.I would I would say, you know, we talked really on about the word aspirational being a really important part of what we're doing here.And so I think you've connected to that quite well.So if there's a way to um to add something there.I I couple of just quick comments.I've really appreciated your work on this.Landing as as I've said all along, I hope I said that loud and clear.Um so I'm picturing myself now as a brand new uh planning commissioner uh planning commissioner.And this is a lot simpler to dissect and understand than what I was presented, you know, 3 years ago when I first started.So I think it has to work for the planning commission.All of us will move on, but this will work for planning commissions in the future better.The other thing I would ask is that now I want now I'm a developer and I want to develop in our community.
And I think I'd like to hear you respond to this.I think this makes more sense for a developer, although some are accustomed to all sorts of different municipalities and different viewpoints of how we pull this all together.So does this make sense based on your experience and your eye for this?Uh a new developer um is this going to be easier, more conducive for him to work with or her to work with?So I'd like to just hear you respond to that.
Sure.Uh I think that the sort of guiding principle to me is um you shouldn't really need an instruction book to go along with the categories.So you should be able to look at them and sort of maybe not be able to understand them completely, but have a general understanding based on what what they say, what their name So if I look at itand say gateway commercial, at least I know it's commercial.I don't really know what gateway.I'm going to go look that up.Mixed use center, what's the difference?Okay, I see it's mixed use and it's a center.That's great.Uh but not having to necessarily have Right now if I go okay, at M2 over there and M3 over there.What's the difference?And I don't know.Or R1 through R5 and I have to dig into the 2018 plan to then find out It's kind of it can be difficult.
So that's that's the goal to me is just make it so it's sort of a little more understandable on its face.Uh still can have that you need to dig in to get the details, but at least if you can get a basic understanding just from looking at it, that's the goal to me.
Okay.So I thought that's how you would respond.Thank you, but I wanted to just hear it kind of get it out there cuz um that's helpful for me.That's thank you.Very good.I'm good.
Well said.
Mr.Potts?
Um So to kind of dovetail on that, um just from like a presentation and like uh and reference perspective, it would be I think I mentioned this last time too.It would be really nice if cuz on some of these categories we have uh examples listed and other ones we have actually like a description definition listed or a a loose definition listed.It would be really good if we could be consistent on that through all of them.Like if we want to have a definition description and an example or or three.Um especially if we're going to be you know, potentially consolidating the parks open spaces natural systems that gives you a little bit more vertical space to play with with that.Um I know it's a little bit more nitpicky design, but you know, going off of if if I'm a a new commissioner coming in, You know, yeah, I can probably intuit roughly what downtown core is, but like, you
know, if we don't have a firm definition or you know, a working definition for that, you know, what's a mixed-use center?We have the examples, but again, you know, just contextualizing a bit more what, you know, from the cuz like the illustrations were super helpful.Um if there's a way that we could contextualize those illustrations into a sentence,
Okay.
for each category, I think that would really dial in this visual cuz otherwise it's a really nice visual.
Mhm.I appreciate that.
Yeah.
Okay.
Is there anything else you need from us, more direction, more feedback?What's the next steps for this?
I see I see sort of next steps as I'd like to go back and get a little more visualization, add add more definitions.I'm I'm thinking I'd like to try combining some things based on our conversations here.Probably I'm going to I'm going to try to combine the two sort of green space ones.I think I'm going to based on conversations and I I think we sort of leave it up, but I'm going to try to see how it looks with mixed-use residential and have the neighborhood center folded in there.Uh I want to spend some time on research technology and office and institutional special and see if we could squish those together somehow.The the goal with like I don't want to squish just for the squish isn't the right word, but like we don't need to combine just for the purposes of combining and so get rid of of categories.
They should be meaningful, they should be different enough that you can understand why they're different, right?Um if they don't need to be different, they don't they shouldn't be.So, that's where I see like there could be a possibility here.I also don't want just like a catch-all of let's just dump everything else in into this category and suddenly we have a big red area crossed in half or something like this.And Mr.Chair, there are a couple
Oh, sorry.Mr.Potts and then then I'll
For the institutional special, would it help to actually just change it the name to institutional educational?Because I think that's more I know we have like public civic in there, but you know, cuz then I don't know where we would put necessarily public civic works, but I think it's just a naming problem on thedivision between the two.I don't necessarily I I I like the idea of the two separate categories there.I think we just need to tweak the name a little bit to reflect that because as it stands right now, yes, I think those two names could be combined into one category.But I think for the purpose of the future land use, I think they are two useful separate categories.
Mhm.Okay.
Um, I appreciate that.
I I I'd I'd be curious to see you play around with that.Mhm.Cuz I think I think you could probably make it work either way, but my preference would be cuz like the institutional special is essentially going to be MSU, public schools, private schools, whatever civic
library
libraries, stuff like that in there.So, I think you might be able to dial in that category name a little bit more.
Mhm.
I don't know what other outliers you might want to stick in there.May I mean like I guess the Hannah Community this building would fit in that.
City Hall.
City Hall, that sort of stuff, but yeah.
Commissioner Do you mind if I respond before moving on to your question?
Yes.
I just uh very briefly, I think the the these land uses also don't have to be in the land use category.I mean, you can City Hall is not in a City Hall category right now.It's in downtown.So, like I mean, the uses don't necessarily demand their own category.They they could.Sure.I It makes sense with a giant university in the middle of town or south end of town to sort of have something to mark that off.I could see educational.I don't know about civic.I think it's certainly worth taking a look though, and I I appreciate your comments.
Yeah.
Um, actually my comment was related.I um I actually really liked Landon that you mentioned the distinction between research technology and office being more private and institutional special being more public-facing.
Mhm.
And I actually wonder if putting the term public in that somehow, right?Public institutional or public I don't want to put public special, but making that distinction between public space and private space, which I think is really important.Um I I also just want to point out that we went from 18, you said, future land uses down to nine.And right?We basically cut it in half.And so I I think I would I understand your both your desire to smoosh.I like the professional term smoosh.Uh where we can, but I also hear you saying that we don't necessarily need to.Um and so um I actually really like the list that we've landed at.But I do I think I do want to echo Commissioner Potts's comment um that I I very much liked your visuals and I would like to see descriptions and locations in each of these.
Um
The commission discusses whether future land use overlays should continue and how they might signal redevelopment priorities. Staff plans to refine the categories, postpone overlays, and return with more detail at a later meeting.
Those are That's helpful feedback.Any other comments?
And then I I if I may I just discussion tonight.Go ahead, Mr.Potts.
So to one more question then for the commission is um to the to the question of overlays.This had come up in an earlier discussion about this could be useful, uh but we haven't really talked about it too much and I haven't honestly heard that much interest.I'm I'm I'm just sort of interested in do do we think that these ideas have legs?Do we want to keep going with overlays?Do you want me to start providing more information?Should we keep this going or do you think that we should be focusing on other things?I guess I'm just sort of interested in thoughts on the overlay idea for future land use overlays.
I I I do like these overlays.Um I think to um Commissioner Chapin's point, um if you're a developer looking at the city of East Lansing, you not only want very clear future land use categories, but I think there's something also really helpful as adeveloper to see um an overlay called priority redevelopment overlay.Um I think it not only makes the developers' job easier, um which I don't always want to do, but I think in this case it's actually kind of helpful.Um but two, I think it sends a signal to potential developers who maybe haven't been paying attention to East Lansing, um that redevelopment is a priority in East Lansing.So maybe it's send again, it's aspirational, it's sending that signal that it's something we're looking for.
Commissioner Donnell, I I chose not to add an a unlimited tree removal overlay.
Oh, thank you.
thinking about it.
If anything, we should be adding a tree protection overlay for historic trees.
I never thought I'd hear you say that.
Uh so redevelopment does get back to the language in that vision statement because I wanted us to think a little bit more beyond uh the initial statement, development, redevelopment.This is really about that, so thank you very much for allowing me to get off of that double statement with introducing again the word redevelopment.Thank you for that.All right.Enough of that.
Took it full full circle, so good job.Mr.Chair, I think that's good for me.Uh I'm getting some good feedback and I can bring more back in a month.
Oh, Mr.Mayor.
Just Laina and I just I just want to thank you for making this simple, making it meaningful, making it user-friendly.We need to be able to look at this and to understand it and to sort the neighborhood in the city into these categories, but but so does the public.
And and the the existing categories, I I find them to be cryptic.And and and you've done a great job in making this user-friendly for us.Thank you.
Thank you, Commissioner.Appreciate that.
Yeah, and all staff.Right?Like I'm I'm sure there've been many hands in making this.And like congratulations for to staff for like taking public prac- like not public practice, but like practice and translating into reality.That's really hard.
Yeah, that's all.
Good staff.
Leadership.
Thank you.
Absolutely.
So, Mr.Chair, I'll plan on bringing this back on the 18th.Um I probably will pull the overlays away from for now uh and bring those back.I I want to make start us having to making decisions on the land use categories, so to finalize those and we can even start drawing the map.And then as we can then develop more details on the overlays cuz I think it will be really good to take a really hard look at those overlays.Uh and also have some like cross-commission and cross-departmental coordination on those cuz it will certainly take multiple bodies.Um so, we'll probably stick put a pin in that and come back to it later on, but uh we'll be focusing on the future land use categories much more heavily and these will not go away.
The commission reviews Bath Township's master plan and offers informal comments, praising its visuals and clarity. Staff notes the comment deadline and reminds members to submit any additional feedback.
Great.
Thank you.Look forward to it.
Okay.Uh seeing no other comments, it takes us on to item 8.2, uh Planning Commission review and comment on proposed Bath Township Master Plan.Mr.Riley.
Uh thank you.This this came before you last uh time.Bath uh Township has their current master plan um in the public comment phase right now.It's going to close on October 21st and as a a matter of uh well, legal legal requirement, also professional courtesy, uh we always send our uh comprehensive plan and master plan updates out to surrounding communities for comment andreview.And so, Bath Township did that did that for us, asked for comments.If we have them, we can make them officially uh through here.If we If we don't or or if you have individual uh comments, you can feel free to send them in.Again, they just asked for them by October 21st, which is next Wednesday.Um I just wanted to give one last opportunity while we're meeting in case anyone had any comments they wanted to make or as a officially as a body, otherwise we don't need to take any action.
I think the only comments I have again just echoing.I really like the use of the aerial or drone photos or whatever they have there and definitely an idea I'd like to steal going forward cuz it really epitomizes um what their vision is I guess.It's just a easier cleaner way to put it.And I also thought they did a really good job of clarifying what their goals and expectations were for the city and what they viewed their deficiencies and how they can improve them and have clearly sort of itemized goalsand a plan to do redevelopment going forward.So I thought it was a very good plan and I didn't read all 262 pages of it, but I read a lot of it.So
Mr.Putz
Um just a technical thing.I think the agenda item for tonight actually doesn't have a link to the um master plan from Bath Charter Township.Has a link to their website but you have to go digging for it from there.
I thought it was tough to find too.I had to pull up the PDF from a previous email.
Yeah, cuz like we found cuz we had this first came to us.Josh found it and then it was attached on last meeting's agenda item.But I think it I think it got didn't make it under this agenda item.So
Thank you.
But we're not taking a vote here.So this is just our opinion.
I just echo your comments.Cheers Sullivan.Well done.I mean I think it's really a nice document.I think you said it very well.I just want to support your your commentary.
Thank you very much.Okay, seeing no additional comments I think we still have when was the deadline for feedback?
Uh next Wednesday, October 21st.
Next Wednesday.So if you have any other comments after you review it, please send them in to Elaine.
Staff presents the draft 2027 Planning Commission meeting calendar and explains proposed date shifts around elections and spring break. Commissioners note a few conflicts and expect to vote on the calendar later.
Okay, any last comments on this?Seeing none that takes us on to item 8.3.First look at proposed 2027 Planning Commission meeting calendar, Mr.Barkley.
Uh thank you.So, every year I want to present our potential meeting calendar for the following year.Uh we don't need to take action tonight, but I wanted to give you the calendar to check your your against your personal calendars.Um we typically meet on the second and first Excuse me, second and fourth Wednesdays of each month.The exceptions being uh typically in November and December when we only have one meeting.Uh we kind of switched things around this month in October, and I'm proposing to do the same thing uh next year in case assuming that we have a November election.Uh and I think we will regardless of the outcome of the um uh charter amendment this year.Uh but we expect that if we have a November election, we want to leave the um room open for early voting, and so I'm proposing to move the October meetings up uh one week each, not pushing them together
into two consecutive weeks like we did this year.Uh but just move it up to the first and third.Um I noted some potential uh conflicts with spring breaks, um but otherwise, just wanted to present this to you guys.Uh If you have any questions, comments, saw some problems, otherwise we'll ask you about it uh next time.And then one just one more thing is that we always have a meeting at 6:30.Uh we used to meet at 7:00.Uh then we moved up to 6:30 for various reasons.I'm always interested if you wanted to move it even earlier or even consider a daytime meeting.Uh that hasn't been of interest before, and I'm seeing some shaking heads on this, so that's not of interest again, uh but wanted to at least uh broach that subject in case there was interest this time.
Okay, thank you.Um
Sure.
Any comments on the the schedule draft schedule?We vote on it in a in a subsequent meeting, right?Okay.Uh I I did cross-reference it with some some of the conferences I typically attend and likely will not be able to make the August 11th meeting due to a conflict, um but the rest of the dates look goodto me.I had a question during review.
When does East Lansing uh spring break?Public schools.
Uh East Lansing Public Schools is because I'm March 26th and ends on April 2nd.
Okay.I'll see no comments.I think we'll be ready to vote on that at a subsequent meeting.
The commission briefly opens commissioner concerns, then adjourns the meeting. The session ends at 8:14 p.m.
So Okay, that takes us on to item number nine commissioner concerns.Any concerns from commissioners?
Okay.Motion to adjourn.
So moved.
Moved by commissioner Potts seconded by commissioner and all any discussion on that motion?Seeing none all those in favor vote I.Those nay.Motion carries we're adjourned at 8:14 p.m.
Okay, very good.