Transcript
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The hosts start with a heated joke about GCN and Andrew Feather before settling into the show intro. They briefly set up the episode and transition into what they've been riding lately.
So, I'm sick of GCN just putting this guy like he is the when he's a great amateur, but stop comparing him to all these pros.
Do you not think he's better than Todd Pagotcha?
No.And and they gave him like a 4 kilo bike.Like they do This is what I hate about GCN.They do all these bogus
like the top 10 cyclists in the world.Andrew Feather isn't making your list.
No.
Okay.
No.
Is this how you really feel?I'm over this, dude.
They talk about inconsistent training, weather challenges, and the need for races or goals to stay motivated. The discussion then turns to the Strava and Garmin lawsuit timeline, which they jokingly claim to have influenced.
All right, welcome back to Bespoke Endurance.Today's episode 26 of Recreational Rider to Racer podcast series where Josh and I are leveling up on the bike and in life amidst uh busy lives, work, and young families.If that is something that interests you, hit that subscribe button and follow us along on our journey.You will not be disappointed.
You won't.Promise.
The the over unnecessary point.
Okay.All right.Um so let's before we jump into everything that we're we're talking because we are talking some some trainer chat.
We do.
But let's get caught up real quick on um cycling lives kind of what's happening in cycling like this week in cycling.Let's kind of do that in the beginning of the show.So, what have we been up to?
Well, I think we've both probably been not as consistent as we wanted to.
Yeah.
I have had weeks where I've hit the like 10ish hour mark, 9 10 hours consistently in terms of just volume from a weekly perspective.Done my done my intervals, done a good zone 2, you know, base besides that.But there's been other weeks where I just it's a struggle when the weather drops and I have to layer up to get outside to get more volume on the weekends.It's a challenge.And then there's sometimes where I'm waking up and I'm just like I'm just going to sleep cuz I want to sleep.And I I think there's just a lack of motivation for me a little bit right now.Yeah.So
I'm very impressed that you're still hitting 10.
Well, it's only been a few weeks.
I can't remember the last time I like it's like been a month now since I've hit a 10-hour week.Yeah.So I mean a lot of it is um both of us have had some stuff in our family lives happening that's kind of limited our writing.
Um I have realized I am very much a I need something on the calendar to look forward to to really get me
motivated like as soon as my stuff
Are these swift races not doing it for you?
No.
No.They're fun but um I haven't really been finding a good like race.Like I've just been
I look for races and it's mostly that Zift Unlimited thing which
is just a very very very fast hard tempo group ride.
Yeah.
So I mean I try to race them but it's
you're talking about the Zift Unlocked.
Yeah.Zift unlock.What did I say?Zift.
No, I I think that's what it's called.
Yeah.Whatever it is where they're just bringing all the new stages and you can
race them but not race them.So I thought they'd be races but they're
they're just really fast group.Yeah.So, you know, I try to hang on, but they're fun.But, um, yeah.So, anything else?Uh, I did find, uh, I'm sorry.
Straa dropped the lawsuit literally the day after we dropped our episode.
Listen, this is this is the timeline.So, you went through the timeline last time.This is this is how I see this.Okay.So, let's just recap everything in in a holistic view now.Okay.
So, just a quick summary.July.Garmin says put our logo on your stuff.
Yep.
And
Strava says no.
Strava says no.Garmin fires back with you've got until November 1st.
Yep.
Straa says we will sue you.So Strava drops a lawsuit.
Yep.
On Garmin or files a lawsuit.
We cover this.No, let let back up.Let's back up.Everybody covers this.
We were the only ones.
Everybody covered this.I'm surprised no not more people like you know
but when we covered this all right so we cover this we drop our episode the day we drop our episode what happens straa drops their lawsuit
so I see this as
they listen to us
we saved Strava and Garmin
so we saved the cycling computer fitness industry you are welcome world we saved the world with this
wow
that's how I see that's how I'm living with it I'm They listen to us.Someone Somebody at Strava
if it's it's heavy lies the crown.You know,
somebody at Strava got off of Reddit and watched our podcast and said, "Man, I think these guys are on to something."
Yeah.
I think we should just not go through with this lawsuit.
I think so.Yeah, I think so.
That's how I'm playing it in my mind for the rest of my life.
The hosts react to Andrew Feather winning the Pogy Challenge and launch into a long critique of how GCN frames him against pros. They debate the fairness of the comparison and invite listeners to weigh in.
Yeah, I think that's it's a wonderful world world to live in, Greg.I I agree.
You're welcome.
All right.Well, this week in cycling, we had the Pagotaa challenge.
The Pogy Challenge.
The Pogy Challenge.
The Pogy Challenge.
Yeah.Andrew Feather won.
Your thoughts, Greg?
I know you're a big fan.
No, I'm I'm over this dude.
Okay.No, no, no.Okay.
No, I kind of am over Andrew Feather.Like, I think he's overhyped.Okay.I need to I I'll say this.I think I recognize that he is a very gifted cyclist, has a ridiculously high um V2 output.He I I will never be as good as him, and I know he is like the prodigal son of British cycling, hill climbing.All that aside,
right,
I am over the freaking GCN puff piece puffing this guy up for everything.
I'm I'm sick of
the way they framed it was he beat Pagota.
I'm sick of GCN.All right.So the when they cover him, they they put this guy on a pedestal like he is the best thing to happen to British cycling since like freaking Bradley Wiggins.And and I'm like, okay, so here's the problem.This is what got it for me.Uh, three years ago, Septoose in the tour breaks the record up Alp Duez.
Yep.
And you could on Zift, Zift did like a Septoose bot where you could like go up against his time.
Virtually.And that was cool.So GCN did a video where they have Andrew Feather race the Septoose bot
and he beats him up the climb.
And they're like, "Oh, he beat Sepoose up the climb."Okay, first off, that dude, Sept Cous,
I like that little voice you have,
had just raced like 90 miles and then raced up.
Yes.
And set that record.
He's in the tour.
Andrew Feather hops on a trainer, gets a full nice warm-up, and then just goes up the climb,
right?Very different.
I guarantee you put Andrew Feather in a grand tour and this guy's getting dropped.He's not hanging with them.
No.
Then that was the first thing.And then he keeps I get like they bring him in of like, oh, who's our best climber that we can get on GCN?Oh, it's Andrew Feather.I'm like, that's fine.When they all try to race him, all their presenters, that's great.But then when he does the Pogy challenge and they're like, he beat Pogy by 3 minutes.Dude got like a six-minute head start and all the footage I've seen of Pogy going up this thing, he's literally like waving to fans and like smiling.I guarantee
you think was going hard like Andrew Feather from
No, Andrew Feather's like, "I'm in the race of my life."And Pog is like, "Oh, this is a fun charity event."
I guarantee you if you put Yonas
against Tade in that event, TAD's time is at least minimum a minute faster.I'd even say two minutes faster,
of course.
There is no way.And like I bet he I bet he catches Andrew Feather
and he gets a 6-minute lead or whatever.Like there's like can this man climb?And
is his wattage ridiculous and all that?Like I think they said 6.2 or 3 watts per kilo which is amazing.
Tades is like 7.1 7.2 after racing.Mhm.
So, I'm sick of GCN just putting this guy like he is the when he's a great amateur, but stop comparing him to all these pros.
Do you not think he's better than Tad Bagotcha?
No.And and they gave him like a 4 kilo bike.Like they do This is what I hate about GCN.They do all these bogus
like the top 10 cyclist in the world.Andrew Feather isn't making your list.
No.
Okay.
No.
Is this how you really feel?I'm over this dude.Like, he's And he And what I hate is he looks like a really nice guy.
I'm sure he is.
I bet he is.But I be friends with him.
I
I don't think you would, though.
I I I just I'm sick of GCN.Like they I'm sick of their clickbay.
Yeah.It is It is funny the the amount of comments on this too.Everybody agrees or just like this wasn't exactly a onetoone challenge here.No.
But um great cause uh raised a lot of money for it.uh good charity.So, um yeah, I I agree with you.Just for the audience, um I have heard Greg rant on Andrew Feather for a while.So, whenever I bring up Andrew Feather, it's a great way to get you you get real you you you get real uh riled up.
It gets me.I think we rode this past weekend and I like for 20 minutes was like I'm
Yeah.I just put the headphones on and I just tell how do you really feel?
With the pro season winding down, they play a game guessing the 2025 UCI men's road race top 10 by points. The segment ends with sponsor messages for Road ID and Chris Carville, the bike lawyer.
Okay, so the pogy challenge did happen, but um this kind of we are at a season.We're at a a time of the professional season now where the season's coming to an end.It's all major racing is pretty much done at this point.So, I thought it'd be fun instead of doing a season recap of highlights of things that stuck out, I thought we'd play a little game.
Okay.
Okay.
So, I have the um 2025 UCI men's road race um top 10 by UCI points.
Okay.
So,
that they've accumulated
that they've accumulated.So, let's not try to guess how many points they have.
Sure.But see if you can get who's in the top 10 and I'll tell you where they rank in the top 10, what number spot they are.
Okay.Obviously, Todd.
Okay.So, Todd's on the list.He's number one.
Jonas.
Jonas is actually number two,
which that surprised me.Um I thought he'd be a lot lower.
Yeah.Given the amount of he doesn't do a lot of Yeah.Remco.
Uh Remco is six.
Six.Okay.So, that's three.Um, you got Vanderpool.
Vanderpool is on there.He's number eight.
Okay.
Del Toro.
Uh, Del Toro is on there.Number three.
Okay.You've got Philipsson.Yasper Phillips.
No, he did not make top 10.
But
you got to remember he crashed out of the tour, so a lot of opportunity was lost there.
Yeah.But he Okay.Yeah.Okay.Um, Mads Peterson.Person is four.So he's on there.You've got the top four so far.
Almeida
five.So you've got the top six now.
Pitcock
seven.So who's nine and 10?You've got the first eight.I'm very impressed.Derek did not get the list this accurate.Oh man.
I feel like there's going to be a couple people that I'm gonna like kick myself later for.Uh, Wild Ward.
He barely made it.
Oh, let's go.Okay, I got
He's 10.
Wow.Okay, that's surprising.I I was He was feel like he would have been on the cusp.
Who else?Um,
if you get this one, I will be shocked.
What team?
Um,
Vizma.No, I'm not going to give you the team because that'll give it away.But I'll give you this.He was a surprise for you this year.Kind of a come out.His uh his coming out party to pro cycling.
Okay.Oh, I don't know.Just tell me.
Oscar Onley.
Ah.
Was n Okay.Oscar Onley.Okay.Yeah.
So, here's what surprised me about the list.
I did pretty good.
You did You did better than our coach.Yeah,
Derek.Uh
yeah,
he struggled
the way the points work cuz I had to I was kind of confused by it at first.
Um the grand tour
stages like a grand tour.
Yeah.
They accumulate way more points.
Yeah.
So Yonas this year, I think he only raced
the Dolphin, the Tour, and the Valta.
But because those are big stage races, even if he got second, that's a lot of points.
Yeah.uh Vanderpool because he pretty much really only focuses on the classics,
he doesn't accumulate as many points,
right?
And so that's why when you look at these guys,
most of the classics.
Yeah.But he wins most of the classics.
He hit podium.
I would have thought Remco would have been higher, but then I remembered he abandoned the tour.
Oh, that's true.Yeah, you're right.
And I was surprised for how much of a pure sprinter he is.Peterson fourth.
Yeah,
that to me is impressive.Yeah.If Peterson would have finished the tour, Yasper would have been up there.I think that Philipsson.Yeah.
Oh,
yeah.
Yeah.I think he would have been on there.
He's such a good He he wins so many.
I mean, he got
stage the sprinter stages.
Did he get third in rubé?I know he was with him, but then he got dropped by TD.I think he got caught by Person, I think.
Yeah.I can't remember who.That was a long time ago.
Yeah.
I like that game.It's a fun challenge.
You did.You did surprisingly like not that I thought you were gonna do bad, but I was like, man, you literally got the first like seven.
Yeah.Well, there's a lot of there's a lot of Yeah.Especially in the grand tours.
Yeah.And it's been such a long season.
Yeah.
All right.Before we go any further, we want to give a huge shout out to Road ID for not only supporting our podcast, but also letting us film right here at their headquarters.If you're a cyclist, runner, or someone who just wants peace of mind while out on the road, Road ID has you covered.Their medical IDs provide crucial info in case of an emergency and they look great, too.Do yourself a favor, check out roadid.com and grab one today.Big thanks to the team at Road ID for their support.This episode is also brought to you by our sponsor Chris Carville, the bike lawyer.If you're injured in a bicycle accident, Chris is the guy to call.20 years legal experience and tens of thousands of miles training and racing.He's not just a legal pro.He's a cyclist who understands what it means to ride and the risks that come with it.
Chris helped me out with my insurance claim when I had an accident back in 2020.He was great to work with, made the process smooth, and took the burdens off of my shoulders.Representing both Ohio and Kentucky injured cyclists.Whether you've been in a crash or just want to know your rights on the road, visit Kentuckyer.com.
They pivot into trainer talk, starting with winter riding discomfort and the hunt for a new trainer. The hosts define entry-level, mid-tier, and top-tier smart trainer users based on riding style and goals.
Love it.Hey, real quick.Let us know in the comments what you guys think of Andrew Feather.I'd actually really love to hear your perspective on this, too.Do you land where Greg lands?Let us know what you guys think.All right, let's get into trainers cuz I'm on the You got me ticked off again.
All right, now I'm pissed.
Like, I had let it go, but like
Yeah, there we go.
Yeah, please.I want to know in the comments.Let us know.
Yeah, let us know what you think.and uh you know get get going again.I love it.Okay, so winter's coming and this is the time of year where we get real real close to our trainers.
Yeah.
Real intimate again.
We went out Saturday.
It was cold.It was like It was under 30 and we were both like, "This is a winter ride."
It was a winter ride.Yeah.Still fun.But yeah, I I think my least favorite thing is just the layering up.Like when you're out there riding, it's it's always you're like, "Yeah, it's cold.It's not it's not as amazing as riding in nice weather, but I think my biggest my biggest challenge for winter riding outdoors is just layering up.It just I don't know why it just bothers me so much.
Getting the layers right or putting them all on.
Put them all on.Yeah, I have the layers.I I h I know what I need depending on the weather.I just it just I hate putting on so much.It drives me insane.I I struggled Saturday with cuz like I have a template I use but then um because I haven't dressed like that in pretty much a year now.
Yeah.
I forgot.
You go back to your
I like I forgot like I like I had the temp
I was like the mid layer is it cold enough?What do I need?And I sure enough I got pretty hot and I was like sweating and then I got cold.
Yeah.
But my feet and my hands were great.The hand warmers and feet warmers are a game changer.That hack is awesome.
It's a good hack.Okay, so I'm actually on the hunt for a new trainer.So my goal is I'm going to sell my tri bike, which I still have.And I've got a now a trainer that I've had for a couple years, the Tac X Slux.For those wondering, it is now
I thought it was tax.
Is it tax?
I could have been saying it wrong for years.
I don't know.Yeah.
This is the problem with the cycling industry is there needs to be an pronunciation.
They just throw words out there and expect people to know how to say it.
Tax.
Like, have you ever seen uh the guys that came
could be on me though.It tax is how I've always said it.
That's how I used to say it, but then I heard him say tax and they're sponsored by Garmin.
Yeah.
But they also call the domania domain and I was like that's not right.Like I know that's not right.Well, anyways, anyways, let us know in the comments.Give us the give us the exact way how to say this.Um, just like tempe fugit,
whatever it is.
All right.So, mine, uh, so I'm on the hunt for a new trainer.
Okay.
I'm curious to get your thoughts on this because I think when I first bought my trainer, I went mostly by price, but I think that was a mistake.
Let me ask you, why why are you on the hunt for a new trainer?So, you have a pretty decent trainer.Why are you on the hunt for one?
Well, I am uh I really am um tired of riding on my tri bike specifically, and I can't My trainer is not compatible with my bike.So, my bike's a 12speed.My trainer is not compatible for 12 speed cassettes.
So, it goes up to 11, but not 12 speeds.So, I literally can't put
because you because you have Yeah.I I can't put my Specialized bike on my trainer.
That makes sense.
So, I've had to keep using my tri bike, which it's okay.I just don't love it.I really want to uh upgrade.And I feel like if I'm going to sell my tri bike, might as well try and make it a package.Like my there's nothing wrong with my trainer.It's just I could probably sell it as like either sell them separately or sell them together and just be like, "Look,
here's the here's the tri bike price.Here's the trainer price.you know,
here's the bundle.
Yeah, here's the bundle.Bundle and save.Okay, so when I first bought my trainer, um it was mostly by price, but now that I'm on the hunt, I've been thinking about what is the most important thing that I should care about when considering different trainersbecause there's a lot out there.What is what is your number one thing that you look that you would look for in a new trainer
that I would look for?
Yeah,
mine is for me it's it's I'm still in that price category.
Okay.But I equate it to I think that there's not just price but like a like a who's these who are these trainers for like tears.
Like tiers.So, I think I've been on an entry level trainer and I think I need to move up to the
Yeah.
the mid tier because I do 50% of my writing inside and 50% outside, but the focus is for outside.
Correct.
So, in my mind, I'm looking at
that's what I'm kind of factoring in.
How would you I think that's interesting.How would you frame those tiers?Like, so entry level trainers would be who are those four?Uh, I would say entry- level trainers are for people who are when I say entry level, so for to to kind of set a parameter.I'm saying everything I'm referring to is a smart trainer.
Yes.Okay.
Yeah.We're not talking about Yeah.Only smart trainers.
Yes.Not a trainer you just get on and do a hit workout on YouTube.Like we are talking people that really want to
try a smart trainer.So
an entry level to me is one that the wheel goes stays on.Um, obviously it's got to have it's a it's a turbo trainer, so it's going to hook up to Zift and and do all that.I think those are for people who want to try riding year round, but just are looking for the ride kind of experience.So, I'm looking for hills to happen, or maybe I'll do the occasional race, or maybe the occasional workout, but really, I'm just kind of trying to do stuff in the winter.I'm kind of the weekend warrior person that's trying to be year- round fitness.
Okay.So, kind of consistency would be the main thing.Yes.Okay.
And then the how would you classify like mid-tier folks?
I'd put myself in this category.
Okay.
So, I'll use myself as the example is I ride 50% inside, 50% outside with a focus on outside.
Right.Everything you're doing on the trainer is for the intent and purpose of like getting better outside.Yes.
Performing better, especially from racing.So, the I do a little Zift racing every now and then, but not anything like Mike
where it's like full kind of that's your focus.Um, and so
I just want a trainer that's going to be very accurate for climbing.
Um, that's really going to have some good pitching cuz I like to simulate climbs like we have in our area or climbs that I'm going to go do.
Um, I'm looking at stuff that's just going to be accurate for workouts.Okay,
that's the mid tier kind of like a good mix.Something that's going to be compatible with the Zift Cog.
Yep.
Um,
so you're looking, it sounds like you're saying accuracy.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think accuracy like power accuracy.
You're Yeah, you're going to spend more money in in the mid tier for sure
than the entry level.But okay, so then top tier would be guys like Mike or others that if if they race on Zift a ton.
Yeah.then or if this is a primary like for Mike it's a great example because he's primarily writing virtual more than anything else
probably
he kills it
90 80 to 90% of his year
is all
is inside I mean even when it's great weather
so his his his the top tier for him and guys like him or gals like him
uh it is you want all the bells and whistles yes
you want the nice the big TV you want the nice setup like you're gonna invest some money because Like we might invest, you know, the part that they might invest more inside, we would invest more outside.
I want to invest in races, in my bike, in
my bike.Exactly.So, and and I think that's a fair analysis of like those tiers.I think that makes sense.
The conversation focuses on trainer accuracy and what percentage error means in real watts. They compare major trainer brands and models, weighing accuracy, gradient, power, and Zwift compatibility.
Um I what I'm thinking about now is I think the one thing that's the most important for me is accuracy.
Okay.And so when I, you know, when you when you because I didn't really focus, I never thought about this when I bought my first trainer, but now I I'm thinking about it a lot because we spend so muchtime obsessing over the little things, right?As as racers, as we we care about the little details, like we buy the nicer we buy the nicer wheels.We care about saving off some extra grams.We care about getting our fit dialed, right, to become more arrow, right?it might save us 10 to 15 watts like when we're racing or when we're doing things.And I think indoors you also like if we care about the little things on our bike outside and in races, little things that we can do to level up, right?Or to become give us a little bit of an edge, right?
I think that also translate into the indoor trainers as well.And one thing I didn't think about as much before was you know when you see those percentages of accuracy where it has like a trainer will say like oh it is the accuracy is plus or minus 1%.It goes up to 1 to 5%.
So my trainer that I have currently is 3%.But just I was thinking about this and I was like you know what I'm kind of curious about this.What does this actually mean?Like when you put this uh when you when you boil this down how how close how accurate is it?So, when I was looking at this, like I thought this is it's an interesting thought experiment to kind of think about like it's the little things, right?Like for those that care, if you're looking at a trainer and you're deciding based on accuracy, I think this is a pretty big deal.So, let me go through this super quick.Let's assume your true output is 250 watts for like steady state interval, right?So, 250 watts is your like that's that's what you're measuring.So for an accuracy, if you got a trainer of a plus or minus 1%.
You're the error range, you're going to be somewhere in that like you're going to be only off by like 2 and a half watts, right?So either way, you could be 248.5 up to 252.5 watts.
Okay,
that's amazing, right?Like that's so small.You're never going to notice a difference.Like great.That's amazing.So 2% you're only 5 watts off.So 245 range to 255, right?So that 250 is like, hey, this is your true output.So on a on a trainer, you might be five five watts off.Again, very very good, right?That's so like it's small enough to where you're not going to really notice it.Okay, so 3% now you're getting into 7 and a half watts either way.So 242.5 to 257.5.4% you're getting 10 watts, which
still at the 250 is the benchmark.Okay.So 240 watts, you could either be 4% off uh by 10 watts and you could be 240 or 260.I think that's pretty big deal.And then if you get up to 5% now you're in that 12.5 uh watts range off.So you could be anywhere from like 237.5 up to 262.5.Now, when you think about that, it it's kind of like as I'm thinking about like us going into this winter, I mean, our trainer is our training lab, right?This is our secret.Like, hey, we're trying to build fitness for the spring.This is where we're quietly building next season's training power.So, it's like the the thing that's valuable for me is like your trainer is only as valuable as the quality of data and how well it controls the resistance.So, if I'm if I'm 10 to 12 and a half watts off potentially in in my training, if I'm spending a lot of time, because we spend a lot of time on our trainers, especially as the weather drops,
that's a big deal.
Yeah.
And I think as the more I care about the little things to get better, I I want to be as accurate as possible or as close to it as possible.And I think the benchmark is like
I think now it should be if I'm looking at this simply from like comparing a trainer roughly the same price to another trainer roughly the same price.I'm going to go with the 1 to 2% accuracy.I I would go with that over anything else of this other trainer that might be three or 4% but they have other bells and whistles that they might I might like more.I'm like no I I I think I want the 1 to 2% accuracy.So what I thought would be good is just to kind of go through very quickly of like the different breakdown of let's let's take the big brands.Okay.Let's not go like there's there's there's a lot of brands out there.
Yeah.But there's a couple of major ones, right?Like there's there's, you know, the ones that most people are familiar with.So we got Wahoo,
we got Garmin, the TAC X
or Tax, who knows?Let us know in the comments,
however you say that.
If anybody at Garmin is listening, hey, we know Strava listens because they dropped the lawsuit.Garmin, if you're listening, please, how do you pronounce your trainers?
We got Van uh Van Reel or Van Van Risel.
I think it's Van I I've heard it both ways.I've heard the Europeans call it Van Rezel, but I've always called it Van Risle.
Van Risel.
I don't think you'd be flacked as much for calling it Van Risel.
Oh man, I'm butchering these.All right.And then we got Elite and then Jet Black and then SARS.Okay.So, going through this really quickly here, just going by the big brands.So, the the one that most people are familiar with, the Wahoos, you've got these kickers, right?
So, the Core one's discontinued.Now, they've got the Core 2.
Yep.
Price point 550.But accuracy plus or minus 2%.
That's really good.
Yeah,
that's a great So
what are the other um what's the what's the max power on that and what's the incline on that?The gradient.Those are important things.
1800 and 16%.
Okay.
And the flywheel.
So if I hit 1,800 I'm on roids.So that's great for me.I'll never hit that.But 16% that's good because I mean you know anything past 16%.
Yeah.And it it's Yeah.I don't think it's all that necessary on an indoor trainer.
Yeah.
Yeah.I think you're I think um Yeah.And then flywheel.We can get into flywheel in a little bit, but just kind of going through this here.Uh so that you then you've also got the Wahoo Kicker.Um the it's really just you know whatever you want to call it there.It's just called the Wahoo Kicker.Um, but the price point is, you know, you're spending 1,50 bucks.Uh, max power 220 watts, accuracy plus or minus 1%.That's amazing.
Okay, that's really good.
Max gradient 20% and is it swift hub compatible?Yes.Yes, it is.
Okay.
Um, and then you got the Wahoo Kicker Move.So, this one's about 1350.
Mhm.
Now, this one is really pretty similar to the other the Wahoo Kicker.Obviously, the big difference here is you just got kind of this more motion.You got more of the natural feel.You can kind of move a little bit.
It slides forward and back, right?Yep.
But not side to side.
Correct.Yeah.
What?
But
I don't Why do you need that?
It It's supposed to give you the more of the feel of what it's like to ride a a road like riding outdoors.I'm like I'm looking at this thing now and I'm like like it's I'm on the website and I'm looking at the
image of it going back and forth and I'm like
I
I'd be curious to try it.
I can't knock until I try.
It looks like when someone is walking in front of you and then stops and starts
like that's what it looks like cuz I'm like this
it might be annoying but it it could be cool.
It would Yeah, I'd be curious to try this.But then another thing with this is like
if you're rocking like this, you don't have a trainer block for your front wheel.
So you're going to be tilted forward.
And that's going to be really
it's going to be a little weird
annoying.Especially like think of when you like stand up and
Yeah.
Like that front wheel when it's not in a training block, it moves like I don't know.This trainer is not doing it for me.
No, I don't think this trainer would be for me.
I would want something that goes side to side more.
Yeah.I mean you could also do rollers.You could just do I mean you also have the Well, I would kick a roller.So, um, you also have the like the hybrid roller where it's like again you're you're really not like this is something to where you know in terms of you're not really considering this when you're thinking about accuracy, right?So, um, but from Garmin
low end, you got the the the flow smart trainer.So, about 340.Um, this is a wheel on.So, the accuracy is plus or minus 5%.I I don't like this.I I don't like this.
That's a lot.
You know, the other thing is crazy about this.
That's 15 watts at 300 watts.
Dude, this this is crazy.Okay, max power 800 watts.Dude, there's so many more pe There's so many people who can go well above 800 watts.That's That's crazy.And then the max gradient 6%.That's ridiculous.Like, that's terrible.So, this is an absolute pass for me.Yeah, this is a this is everything about this trainer.I'm like, this this is this is not the trainer for I I would argue this shouldn't be the trainer for anybody.All right.And then my trainer is discontinued, the Flux S, so we won't go into that.But then they have the Flux 2.So, this is the other one where it's a direct drive.Price is about 500 bucks.Um, accuracy plus or minus 2.5%.So, a little better than my trainer is, which is good.It's got about 2,000 watts, max power, gradient 16%.Um, flywheels 15 pounds, 15 and a half pounds.
That's really good.So, this is a good this is a great trainer.Like, this could be a great trainer.The challenge with this one for me though is this is not Swift uh hub compatible.So, the cog and click like you can't do this on this one.
Is that important to you?
I I think it would be.Yeah, I think so because then it becomes it's it's then you can have other bikes that you can throw onto this trainer.
Well, hang on.Your your Tax or Tac X wasn't compatible with your uh is this one?
No, this one's not either.
So, this one's not even compatible.No.
So, here here's the problem.
So, this one for me is like, oh, I like this.And then all of a sudden, I'm like, I don't know if I like it as much because of that one thing.I don't know if this is a thing, but like I remember when I was buying my bike, uh the shop owner thought I was kind of crazy as this being a part of the equation, but I kind oflooked at every scenario of how I'd be riding my bike cuz I do put my bike on the trainer.So, the Shimano 12speed cassettes are backward compatible.
They fit with 11speed
Yeah.
sprockets where the the Stram ones don't.So, I remember thinking like, I want a Shimano bike in case I ever get a nicer trainer, I can.This was before the Zift Cog existed.
Yeah.
So, back when it was like you got to put a cassette on a trainer.
Correct.
So, so this would this would be out of your wheelhouse either way then.
Yeah.
Correct.Yep.
And then um then you got into their their higher tiers.So, then you've got their Neo2T.Um this one's about 900 bucks.Um accuracy plus or minus 1%.Uh, max power 2200, max gradient 25%.Um, I man, you're that's if that's important to you, that's great.But, um, and this one's obviously Zift Hub compatible.So, that one's a That one's great.That one's a solid.Um, you got the Neo 3M.This is their last one.And this one is um the hubs compatible.This one's $1,500.Uh, plus or minus 1%.This is their kind of their flagship model.Um, now this one, uh, yeah, 2200 watts, max grading 25%.So, this one is is is great as well.Um, but yeah, it's just a it's just even just
Oh, this moves, too.
Yep.It kind of moves a little bit.I was going to say with like motion motion plates.So, um, if you like that movement, it's great.
So, then
we need to try we need to try one of these cuz apparently they're a big deal.
They continue comparing specific trainers, including budget options and higher-end models, while discussing flywheel weight and ride feel. The hosts narrow down what matters most when choosing between similar trainers.
Yeah, it would be I I can't knock it until I try.I'm really knocking it and it's like apparently this might be what I'm missing out on, but
go from the wheel.
I look at it, I'm like, I don't think this is what I'm missing out on.
Yeah, I it would be interesting to try it.Um, okay.So, then you have uh Van Resell or Van Risel.They have their D100.So, this one is um they've had others that are discontinued, but this is the one they have online listed.So, this one's 300 bucks.
Okay.Okay.That's a nice price.
I think this one's an absolute pass.Let me hear what.Lay it on me and I'll I'll be the judge.
600 watts.
Nope.
Max gradient 6%.
Nope.
Accuracy plus or minus 5%.
No.
Flywheel 7 lbs.
Yeah, that's a no.
No.
Uh, is it compatible?Yes, it comes with the Zift uh cog and click, but I think for 300 bucks that's I I think you could you can spend a little bit more and get so much more from a trainer.I don't I don't think this one's the trainer for
you know what this trainer looks like.
This is the uh this is the trainer because it's it comes with the Zift Cog and it's like that's the big selling point.This is like when a really really crappy quality bike and a really really crappy carbon fiber like lowriced bike but they throw on a really nice Altegra group set and you're like oh it must be great and you'relike that bike is garbage but it's got a nice group set.That's what this looks like where this trainer looks like garbage, but it's got the Zift Cog.
Yeah, I think this one's a pass.Um, all right, then going into Elite.Um, they've got their XRT.U, this one's 600 bucks.Um, this one is plus or minus one 1.5%.So, that's really good.So, 600 bucks, cheaper than some of the other ones.Um, I like that.That's appealing to me.Um, and this one is uh ZiftHub compatible.Um, and this one has max gradient 24% 2300 watts.Uh, yeah, I think this one's a this one's a solid trainer.I I think this would be a good this is a good buy.
Okay.
Yeah.All right.So, then the other two that you've got here, just in terms of popularity, you've got the Jet Black Victory.So, this one's 400 bucks.This one has an accuracy of plus or two or plus or minus 2%.That's really good.
Okay.Uh 1,800 watts for max power.It's great.It's
fine.No.
Max gradient 16%.Also great.
Good enough.
No issues.Yeah.
Um yes.And this one is Zift ready with a uh cog and click.This one if I had to pick So if I if I'm selling my tri bike and if I can get more from my tri bike in the price range that I want.Um I you know I I'm I'm thinking I might do the Zift Ride plus their Wahoo Kicker.Like that would be the combo.the Zift bike.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, hopefully that's my combo, right?But if I was just looking for a trainer in and of itself,
I I would be very interested in this one.The jet black one, that's a great price point.And you get great accuracy,
compatible with Zift in that in that, you know, the cog.And I found that for the max gradient, my current trainer has 10% is the max.16% would be great.And then you got this SARS M2.Uh, this one has plus or minus 5%.Um, yeah, I'm out on this.Um, I Yeah, I just don't think it's like for Yeah, the price kind of varies a little bit, but 1500 max watts, you know, max gradient 15%.
Not bad.
Um,
it does not it's not compatible as with uh cog click.So, this one I'm out on.
Oh, yeah.What was the price on that?
Um, this one's a wheel on design.This one.
Oh, it's a wheel on.
Yeah.Oh, no.I have one.No, I have a wheel.I have a wheel on trainer and I'm telling you,
that's not it.
Don't do it.
Yeah, but if I was purely looking at trainers alone
that I think I might go the Jet Black Victory.Now, the reason I'm I'm probably going to go the Zift ride plus the Kicker is because I'm selling my tri bike and I can get a little bit of money for that and I'm going to probably sell mytry and sell my trainer.So, I'm like I think I can probably get that price point where I wouldn't have to spend or hopefully not spend any money.So, are you gonna So, if you sell those things, you're going to get the jet black and then um are you
I'm going to get the Zift ride and the Kicker.
Oh, you're going for the Oh, okay.So, that's
I was going to say I thought you were saying you're going to get the Jetack and then go get the Zift bike.And I was like, I guess you could do that.
Yeah.No, I'll just get the Wahoo Kicker Kicker Core, too, because it's got the accuracy of 2% 16% gradient, you know, max gradient, 1,800 watts.Like, that's great.And it includes all the handlebars and controllers.I'm like, that's Yeah, you can't go wrong with that.The only reason I'm doing it is because I can get that money.Hopefully I can get that to where I can get that bike or at zero or I can make a little bit more than what I'm going to pay for that.So,
okay.
Yeah.But
what are your thoughts?
What do you like of all those that listed?Like what would be your like initial reaction to
I'm eyeballing the kicker core with the
Okay.
the um Zift COG I get.
What do you What do you not like about the jet black though?
Um
it's got
I for for me I I'm a sucker for branding.
Listen, you need to get out of your
Well, no, what I mean is um historically I think Wahoo's customer service is pretty good.Like that's that's part of it for that's the smaller stuff that
what I like about the the bigger brands is a lot of the time if something goes wrong, they really stand by their product.I think Wahoo makes really durable stuff.So my trainer is
five years old.It's a wheelon trainer, but it still runs great.
You're just paying a little bit more for the brand between the two.Honestly, you're getting basically the same trainer.You're just paying more for the brand.That's a I mean, literally, you're paying for the brand.You're still getting the accuracy is the same on both.You're getting the same max gradient.You're getting the same I think pretty much the same uh max power, you know.So, um the only thing would be the flywheel.I don't know.Let's see here between the two.So the let's just talk about this.What do you do?You does flywheel like when you're looking at trainers, are you familiar with these?
No, cuz I've always had the dumb wheel on trainer.So it's not been a big thing for me.
Yeah.But
I it's I I didn't know anything about it until I after I bought my trainer and then I I kind of learned more about it.But it's basically like you've got two things and you'll see this when you're looking for different like direct drive trainers where they they talk about the there's two things they talk about a lot where it's like they havethe electromagnetic resistance
um which is essentially just your trainer makes pedaling harder or easier by changing the strength of this magnetic field.So like
by not tightening or loosing like a physical brake.That's what they're doing with it.So it's cool.But what it wraps around is the flywheel.And the flywheel, you'll see them listed on each of these trainers listed out like in terms of their weight.So the flywheel is like this heavy rotating disc that stores kinetic energy.It basically all it means is like it's just giving that feeling of momentum when between the pedal strokes.So it's really the the way I've thought about it too and the way they kind of talk about it is just the smoothness of pedaling.So, it's like if you've got a if you've got a heavier flywheel, that gives you an even smoother, more realistic like
So, the heavier the better.
Heavier the better.So, that's when you see them listed as like, hey, if you got a 7 lb flywheel, it might not it it won't be as smooth as another trainer that's got like a 15 pound uh flywheel and so ora 20 pound.So, mine has a 15.Mine feels pretty good,
but when you look at other trainers now, most of them have pretty good flywheels now.
But that's something that you should consider as well.
What What in your mind is the a good like I wouldn't go below this for a flywheel weight.Do you have a number in your mind as you're kind of looking more because it's because you've definitely been looking
Yeah.I mean, it's hard to say.I mean, I've got the one where it's like um it's like 15 pounds.So, it's like mine has been fine.I I don't I don't know the difference between a 10 pound and a 15 pound.I know that like for example like the Jet Black has like a 10 pound one.And I'm like, okay, would I notice that difference?I don't know.I really don't know.But I do know that I would not I'm sure I would notice it if I went from like a 20 pound down to a 10 pound
or if I went from, you know, if there was a flywheel that weighed like, you know, like for example like the entry level TAC Tac like the Flow Smart has a 3.5 flywheel.I'm like
3.5 pounds.Yeah, I'm like that has to feel different like the smoothest of pedaling.
Um, so that that would be something I would say generally I would look at it minimum be 10 pounds plus.
Okay,
that would be like my minimum.
But obviously the heavier the better.So
yeah,
They shift from trainer hardware to indoor setup essentials like mats, fans, TVs, and trays. The discussion also covers sweat management and how indoor riding may affect bike components over time.
but that I I understand the other aspect for a lot of people is simply just the fact of like look all I'm really looking to do for this trainer is just be consistent.Great, that's your thing.I am thinking more about this now in terms of accuracy where I'm thinking like that's going to be that's gonna be my that's gonna be one of the things that's gonna be really important for me.So, but yeah, I don't know.I I don't I don't know that I you know I think for guys like Mike and others that you know if they're looking for that topend trainer like it's out there and they've got all the bells and whistles.I just don't I don't know that that's you know for for guys and gals like us.I don't think you need all those.When I got my wheel on trainer, I got it for 500 and I was like, "Wow, this is I mean, this was five years ago.
This was before the trainers just drastically became more accessible and affordable."I think in the last two years they've really become
uh more obtainable.
Yeah.
So, I'm like
I think so.Do you think there's additional things you should get like if you're looking at a trainer
like outside of the trainer?
Yeah.Like I mean like what would what would you say would be the another like things that you just would say is like if you're looking at buying a trainer for the first time.
Yeah.
What would be like the must haves?
Um either a trainer mat or a
very So I don't have a mat but um I have a carpet strip.When we redid our flooring, it was extra
something that you can put your trainer block on, it won't slide.Because if you're on concrete or wood,
when you like stand up and put pressure, it's gonna slide around and that's super annoying.Um,
uh, my TV hack is whatever TV for ours that is starting to go out,
that becomes my trainer TV.
Yeah, I like that.
So, I have like a 55 in TV.It's completely unnecessary, but my father-in-law got rid of it cuz it had a blue and a red line on the left side going down it.And he's like, I can't watch TV on this.I was like, well, I can definitely ride a bike on this.So,
perfect for me.
Yeah, it's great.So, that's kind of always been my strategy for a TV is whatever you're about to throw away, just
take that.Um,
I've got one for you.Yeah.So post uh conversation with Mike, he talked about having three fans and I was already I think you and I were in the same boat where we have the small little um
Honeywell
Honey Well fans, right?So it's like that fan doesn't do anything.So what I've So my now that the weather's dropped my we just bought this like cheap Walmart fan for my son in his room.This was before every like it's kind of for like it was still warm enough out to where he just needed an extra little fan.But this thing's got like this big It's just one of those old school like just big fans
like a box fan.
Yeah.Okay.
A box fan.That's Yeah.So we He's not So it's cold enough now to where he doesn't use it anymore and I'm like I'm putting this thing down where I train.It's amazing.Really?It's so good.I'm like
I have been missing out from a good like a good cheap fan
forever.And I'm like, I wish I would have had this fan.
How close do you put it to you?Because
pretty close.But this I mean I'm Well, I should say pretty close, but also like I'm at level one on this fan.If I blasted up to level three, I'm like you could be 10 feet away and this thing would be so much different than so much better than even my small little ring.
Too much though.
I like it at level one.I think level one's good because it's still giving you a good gust of air.This thing's awesome.But it was like 40 bucks at Walmart and I'm like
this thing is well worth just having a good fan.And I'm like, if you're spending that much time, especially now that the weather, like especially as a lot of people are getting more acquainted with their trainers again, I'm like, get a good go out and get a betterfan.
That does sound nice.My mine has a so I have a honey well and it sits to the side and I have to get it where it just hits like my neck up
and it hits my right hand.
So my right hand is usually pretty dry, but the left is like sweat like it's like sweating all over the handlebars.And
bro, get get yourself a good boxer.What do you think about um you mentioned the Zift bike?
Mhm.
The um like the white
the Zift ride thing.It's just a frame.
Yeah.
I feel like this is very you get very mixed opinion.You go to a shop and they are like don't put your carbon bike on a trainer.It will ruin it.Everything will break.
And then other people are like you're fine.Like
I think it's fine.
So I I put my bike on the trainer, but I put a I put towels.
Yeah.So it catches like any sweat that would come down.So I don't think I'm sweating on any components.Like I cover everything.
Okay.So actually I might disagree because I learned when I So my my bottom bracket of my tri bike because I've had my tri bike on my trainer forever like or not forever like uh two plus years, right?So I've I've I have never swapped out my bottom bracket on my on my tri bike.That thing is already an older bike, but what happened was I brought it into I I it was I basically I uh blew out my bottom bracket on my tri bike.That thing was grinding like crazy.I was like, there's I'd just taken this into the shop.What the guy told me was interesting cuz he asked me he's like, "So, how often you ride this and all that stuff?"And I was like, "I'd use this just for training."He's like, "Well, the one thing you might want to consider, he's like, "Do you have towels and stuff?"
I was like, "Yeah, of course."He's like, even with towels, he's like the amount of sweat that you that can just drip down into different parts of your bike in your gears.He's like, it can drip certainly down into your bottom bracket.And he's like, that's something that like he's like I think probably, you know, really didn't help you at all with your bottom bracket over the years.And so I just I thought about that.And I was like, "Ooh, that is something I didn't think about."Like, cuz I'm always thinking just handlebars, kind of my like, you know, um just the frame itself.But I'm like I'm thinking about like I don't I don't even think about how much sweat maybe drops down into my bottom bracket.
I wonder if I had a big box fan if it would just blow it off.
Good.
Cuz my little fan is so small.
Yeah.But yeah, I don't know.So that would be something I would I don't know.I I definitely would consider it a lot more.
Okay.But the fact that I just replaced it, I'm like, "Oh, I'm solid for another year."
Yeah, you got at least one more year before you sell that thing.Good luck selling that.
Yeah, I know.
Um Okay.Uh what do you think?Rocker plates, necessary or not necessary?
Yeah, I mean I think they're fine.I don't I don't know that they're necessary.
Okay.
What do you think of them?
I've never tried one.I'd be curious.
They briefly discuss rocker plates and other comfort upgrades for long trainer sessions. The episode closes with a call for listener bike reviews, trainer recommendations, and pronunciation help before signing off.
Mike is willing to sell me his old one.
Yeah.
Um because he's got the the smart bike.
Yeah.So, I think it I I think it'd be interesting because I do feel like my hips get sore when I do prolonged trainer rides.
Yeah.
Um versus like outdoor rides.Like when I do high mileage outside, I'm like my hips are fine, but when I'm on the trainer, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, my hips are
Yeah.
So, that's why I also want to go shorter cranks."Um,
let's see.Other little things.I think uh a little tray table next to you
for food and water.
You need something like that.
That's nice to have.Put your phone there.Put your all your bottles and nutrition.Yep.
Um
I I mean I really think just other than that like um you know I think just having I'm I'm pretty big on fans now.So as long as you got some sort of stand like I use my computer so I don't I don't have the nice TV.I could I just don't care.We've got our little basement setup where I'm just like I've just got it on my computer it's it's good enough for me.So but as long as I can just have it right in front of me.So, before we go, one of the things that's been really fun is we just we've been launching these bike review videos.Now, we've launched them weekly.So, we filmed a bunch.We've got a bunch of buddies locally who race and have put a lot of uh miles into their bikes.And we have had a lot of fun just being able to hear from people that it's not your your typical, hey, this is the latest and greatest bike.
Some of them are, but most of them are ones that bikes that guys and gals have been riding for, you know, a couple years.Some of them have put 20 plus,000 miles on them, you know, 9,000 miles.So, put some serious miles into these bikes.What what we would love is, especially from those of you following us um uh that we we haven't had the chance to connect with, we would love to have you engage with us and or submit your bike review.If you've got a bike that you love, we can do this virtually and we would love to hear from you in terms of why you think your bike is awesome, what you love about it, maybe what you don'tlove about it.We can maybe feature you on the channel.So, we've got a form, we'll link it in the comments below.
If you're interested in it, check out the the recent bike reviews that we've done.Um, it'll give you the good template for kind of how they look and feel.Uh, we've been having so much fun with it, but we'd love to hear from you guys.So, if you've got a bike that you think deserves a spotlight, let us know.Drop us a comment below.
Yes, we also want to hear from you your take on trainers.What do you look for in an indoor trainer?What is your setup?What is most important to you?Is it power?Is it accuracy?Is it feel?What are some hacks that you've been doing to get the ultimate setup?What did we miss?What would uh what would you recommend to Josh and I as we are both now hopefully in the market for a new trainer this winter?So, um
and how do you say TAC X?Yes,
and Van Risle,
please let us know in the comments,
please.
And if you comment, if you could also maybe drop a link to the actual pronunciation instead of just typing it out because that would be helpful, too.
I love it.All right, till next time.
See you.