# Buy To Let Landlord Shares His Secret Strategy | Raj Beri | BIG Property Podcast Ep 77 **Channel:** Saj Hussain **Source:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip1BDrz4uLA **Transcript page:** https://www.withtranscript.ai/video/ip1BDrz4uLA ## Chapters - 0:00 — Introducing Raj's Buy-to-Let Strategy - 10:35 — How LHA Maximizes Rental Income - 23:13 — Costs, Tenancy Stability, and Risks - 29:18 — Advanced LHA Models Explained - 36:23 — From Scientist to Full-Time Investor - 46:17 — Choosing Freedom Over Endless Scaling - 55:06 — Connecting Through LinkedIn and Content ## Transcript **[0:00] Speaker A:** My guest on this podcast is Raj Berry, a scientist by profession. What he's done is systemized and scaled a buy to let business where most people really struggle to make a profit. He's creating hundreds of pounds of additional profit every month. And this is a very unique strategy that I probably can't think of anybody else in the country that's actually doing this. And he's been doing this for more than 10 years. **[0:21] Speaker A:** Let's get straight into the podcast. **[0:23] Speaker B:** With universal credit, everything's assessed by the government. Okay. And if it's wrong, they won't give you what you think you should be getting. That's the thing. There is somebody assessing all the applications. There has to be. So the outgoings are quite simple. It's a simple unfurnished buy to let. So obviously I have to pay a mortgage on that. So there's the mortgage. Okay. And we all know rates have gone up, but when rates come down, my cash flow, like everybody else's, will increase. Can man and wife get on as business partners? And generally we do. Okay. Not always. There's a few fireworks. And secondly, can the business afford it? **[0:58] Speaker A:** Yes. **[0:59] Speaker B:** To pay your wage. I mean, she never went back to work. **[1:03] Speaker A:** Yes. **[1:06] Speaker A:** Raj, we've known each other for almost 20 years now, and you're very measured and calculated in your approach to property investing. And you've chosen buy to let as a strategy which I think is dead. It, there's just no future in it. **[1:20] Speaker B:** Well, yeah, well, I'm going to disagree. I am measured in my approach and I suppose that's the background of being in science. Being a scientist, I've always taken a measured approach. But your contention that buy to let is dead, I think is based on older principles rather than the niche thing I do with buy to lets. And it's based on the assumption that by the time you bought something, a couple of hundred pounds positive cash flow, you're going to need a lot of those units to start. **[1:50] Speaker A:** So if it's a couple hundred pounds or say 2000, two and a half thousand pounds a year that you're making on that property, well, only need one boiler repair and that profit's gone and literally there's no money to be made. I think buy to let, I think works as a strategy. **[2:03] Speaker A:** When you are looking for long term equity growth, you buy in selective areas where you don't need the cash today, but you have taken a niche approach. So although it's a straightforward buy to let, your income from those is significantly higher. Tell me how you've done that. **[2:22] Speaker B:** Yeah. So as with, as with all things property and we've known each other for such a long time, I always say this. There's actually nothing new. Okay, yes, it's been rejigged, remodeled a little bit. But anybody saying I'm the pioneer, I think that's few and far between. People often have rehashed it, renamed it, but actually if you wind the clock back, you appreciate that somebody was doing this, you know, a decade ago. **[2:47] Speaker A:** Yes, there were. I do remember. And before we get into exactly what the strategy is, I remember years ago, we've spoken about it, but when we were speaking recently, I couldn't think of another person and I like to think I'm very well connected that's actually doing this strategy. **[3:02] Speaker B:** Yeah. And you're right on that point. There are actually I've asked on social media again and again, every few months or whatever, I'll post to say, is anybody doing this? **[3:12] Speaker B:** Typically they confuse what I do with social and supported housing because it sits under the the same banner of welfare benefit tenants. Yes. **[3:20] Speaker A:** Okay. **[3:20] Speaker B:** People **[3:20] Speaker A:** essentially where the government is paying for the accommodation. **[3:22] Speaker B:** Exactly. And so people constantly get it confused. And we know social housing support and living. You're taking a house, whatever that is, and you're giving it to a charity, housing association council for like a rent to rent, a lease. But **[3:37] Speaker A:** that's not what you're doing. **[3:38] Speaker B:** So mine are all private rented sector. Okay. And they're not HMOs, they're two, three bed, simple, unfurnished buy to let. So we all know what one of those looks like. I mean you just need to go on rightmove and you'll see them. The difference is that the property's not different in terms of being a buy to let. It's what I do with the kind of tenants I put in there, which actually maximizes my cash flow, which makes buy to let. Albeit this model is harder to do as we'll come on to and you have to learn the ropes. Makes it very worth my while and this is where my growth has been. **[4:17] Speaker A:** Yes, **[4:18] Speaker B:** and it will continue to be. So. **[4:20] Speaker A:** So you've had buy to let's for a very long time. **[4:21] Speaker B:** Yeah. **[4:22] Speaker A:** And you started with buy to lets. And what you've done is rather than involving lots of different strategies, I know you do a few other things that we'll talk about, but you've honed down this model of effectively collecting local housing allowance, but a significantly higher rate than we would ordinarily. So if I've got a family house, a three bedroom family house and I'm renting it out on the open market. That might be, I don't know, 8, 900 pound or something, depending on where it is. And if I was going to let that to a family on lha, I'm assuming my income from that is going to be less because the rates are generally less than the market rates. **[4:59] Speaker A:** So how is it you're achieving way, way more than that. **[5:02] Speaker B:** So, yeah, and obviously the government controls those rates and if anybody was watching, I'm not sure anybody was, but in the Autumn statement, Jeremy Hunt actually, after a four year gap, raised the LHA rate significantly, which actually got a few of us who are doing this, you know, quite excited again because they've been, you know, they've been fixed for about four years. Ideally they should raise them every year because rents are going up so they should really mirror the market. But that's not how the government does it. So the way I've over, I think I've been doing this over 10 years and all the houses that I'm talking about, just to avoid any confusion, are all simple, boring Magnolia Buy to lets. I'm an accredited landlord, so they're all, you know, tick the boxes as far as the council is concerned. And we do have selective licensing where I am, so they do inspect my properties. **[5:52] Speaker B:** So the type of tenants I put in there to try and maximize. The best analogy I can use saj, is assume it's an hmo, okay. Which hopefully, you know, people watching know what that is. Now let's put four tenants in there who are all housing benefit, or lha, whichever term you want to use. Now each of them can claim an LHA rate, but it's an hmo. And you know, we know that that's probably the toughest model that you can do. **[6:17] Speaker A:** Hard work, yes, **[6:17] Speaker B:** it's very hard work because of the nature of the demographic, you know, the type of tenants you get. **[6:21] Speaker A:** So we're talking not about professional working tenants, we're talking about people that are probably unemployed on benefits. **[6:29] Speaker B:** Correct. You know, and you can create people we know mutually have got HMOs that got benefit tenants in them. So the easiest model I can say, well, assume there's four in an HMO and you've got two bathrooms because that's a good mix. And a living room, that's your hmo. Okay. It'll obviously have to be furnished and the bills have to be included. Now, as I say in my talks, take away two of the rooms, take away the bills, take away the furniture, you've now, got a two bed buy to let, but you've still got two sharers in there. **[7:01] Speaker A:** Yes. **[7:02] Speaker B:** And each sharer, if you get it right, can claim exactly what the government is telling them that they're entitled to. **[7:09] Speaker B:** So your typical house, I mean I'm in Nottingham so I can only talk about Nottingham rates and probably a little bit of Manchester as well. In Nottingham somebody who's a single person, at least 35, because there's a rule in there by government in Nottingham can claim 550 whether they're living in an HMO in a room or in a room in a buy to let. **[7:30] Speaker A:** Right. So if they were renting a room and that room was say £400amonth, they would get £400amonth because that's what they would claim. But what you're saying is they're actually entitled to more. **[7:42] Speaker B:** Yeah. So in your typical buy to let, this is why I always like to paint the analogy with an HMO with four, because people can visualize that. And then I say take away two rooms and take away a bathroom, but leave the shared kitchen and leave the shared bathroom. That's not an HMO anymore because it's got two. However, if they're a certain age and in government rules it's 35 or over, they can claim 550 each. **[8:05] Speaker B:** So if you're good at maths they'll tell you that's 1,100. Now that same two bed house in Nottingham, okay. On the open market will get about £800. **[8:16] Speaker A:** Right. So the market rent is 800, that's 8. You're achieving 1100 on that. **[8:22] Speaker B:** So the way I like to think of this model, to make it worthwhile in my eyes and I've been doing it for over a decade to make it worth my while and the effort that it takes to learn and then implement, you know, I think you've got to be earning at least 200 pound uplift. That's not the cash flow. Uplift over the market rent. Okay. **[8:40] Speaker B:** Otherwise it's quite a lot of work. If all. If you're only getting uplift of £50amonth, it's quite a lot. So that's. But it varies from city to city. I think when I gave a talk in Birmingham, my uplift generally was coming out about 300. I've just spoken at Manchester Pin and they're hitting, you know, four or five hundred pound uplift **[8:56] Speaker A:** over. This is over and above market rates, over, **[8:58] Speaker B:** above market rent, which I know people will say, oh that's not right. But, you know, we will know that you have to do the numbers. You have to do your due diligence. **[9:05] Speaker A:** When you say people say it's not right in the sense that they think it's not possible. And it is possible because you've been doing it, and not recently, but for such. Such a long time, and doing it consistently and learned and understood how you can look at the eligibility of an individual and then match that up with their property. So you're maximizing what you can earn from that. From that property. **[9:25] Speaker B:** And of course, that's why I talk about HMO first, because people can understand that if you put four claimants, four LHA tenants, claimants means that they're claiming welfare benefits into an hmo and they're not related. Each can put a claim in for housing benefit. I mean that. And people who do that, whether it's working tenants or students or benefit tenants, you're charging by the room **[9:46] Speaker A:** and **[9:47] Speaker B:** all of them. Right. And it's just, where is the rent coming from in your professionals, they're working for the student, they're getting a loan from the government for, but the LHA tenants, they're getting it from the government. Okay, but the point is those four, if you want to keep this very simple, what we'll talk about model one, you're bringing that down to two because it's now not an HMO. **[10:07] Speaker A:** Yes, because the HMO is. Three unrelated people become the HMO. So even though you got 280 people living together, it's not a HMO at that **[10:13] Speaker B:** point **[10:14] Speaker A:** by any stretch of the imagination. **[10:15] Speaker B:** Yeah. And because my model tends to keep it easy and, you know, stops my hair getting even whiter than it is getting, I tend to find two people who know each other. **[10:26] Speaker A:** Yes. **[10:26] Speaker B:** Okay. **[10:27] Speaker B:** Which means that I don't put any furniture in. It's a buy to let. I have to keep telling people all the time. People tell me it talks. **[10:35] Speaker A:** Hey, if you enjoyed this podcast with Raj Berry and you'd like to learn more about this particular strategy that Raj uses, then I've got some great news for you. Raj has agreed to do a free online session where he'll go into more details around the tactics and the strategies that he uses. So make sure you register for that. The link is on the screen now, and we'll also put it in the description. Description for you. So get registered now. And let's get straight back to the podcast. And I think that's the bit that a lot of people struggle with. And even when I think about this model, my Mind goes straight away to what you got to furnish. You got to kit it out and everything, and then you got to find the right people. But essentially, as you said, you're just operating standard buy to let property, standard buy to let mortgage on there. **[11:13] Speaker A:** You've got people that are legible for the rates, and you're making it work in that way. **[11:21] Speaker B:** Exactly. And these rates are published. Okay. So there's nothing contrived. The government publishes them, changes them once a year. Obviously, in April 2024, there was a massive hike because, as you know, rentals have been climbing. So the feedback to the government from Shelter from the NRLA was that, hey, you're miles away from the market rent. So do something about the housing benefit rates. Yeah, I'm going to use housing benefit and LHA interchangeably, but at the same **[11:48] Speaker A:** time. And yeah, I mean, LHA and universal credit is the current version of the payments, but whether we're talking local housing allowances, we're talking about, or dss, whichever phrases, we're talking about people in that same category. So with the model like this, what are the challenges of making this work? I know you've mastered this process, but there must be some challenges. It can't be. **[12:14] Speaker A:** You know, you're playing golf all day and it's. It's working really well. **[12:18] Speaker B:** The main challenge, as again, put it on one of my slides recently, is that where's the resources? I mean, you said this morning when we were having a coffee, I didn't realize anybody was still doing this. **[12:28] Speaker A:** Yes. **[12:28] Speaker B:** And guess what? You know, people have told me the same thing. You know, I googled this and I've watched you, I've gone to YouTube. Nobody's talked about it. Well, there's your biggest challenge. Okay. People are wanting the cash flow and are willing to put the hard work in that. You know, I always tell them, look, it's. It's hard work to set it up, but where's the information? **[12:48] Speaker A:** Yes. **[12:49] Speaker B:** And there isn't, you know, **[12:49] Speaker A:** the knowledge isn't readily available in terms of how to do this. **[12:52] Speaker B:** Oh, and you need to, because **[12:53] Speaker A:** so few people are doing **[12:54] Speaker B:** it. You know, and I do, because we've both been through, you know, education and got that knowledge and applied it and implemented it. You need it. **[13:00] Speaker A:** Yes. **[13:00] Speaker B:** Okay. Because, you know, you what, you know, the cliche is right. You don't know what you don't know, and you will get it wrong. And then you'll wonder why. Then the government's just giving you what I call standard rate versus what they're entitled to. That's because the onus is on you to make a case in case somebody at the other end, and in this case it's all becoming universal credit. Knows what it is that you're trying to achieve. And that's why I always go back to the HMO model and say assume four sharers in an HMO all housing benefit. Now strip that back down to two because you're now looking at a two, three bed. **[13:35] Speaker A:** Yes. **[13:36] Speaker B:** Buy to let. **[13:36] Speaker A:** Yes. **[13:37] Speaker B:** Okay. And I get asked this question frequently. Have you got buy to let mortgages on them? 100%. Okay. Because I don't operate in any sort of underhand **[13:47] Speaker A:** way. Yeah. As we've known each other for a long time and I know your, your view's always been straight down the road. I'm not going to do this kind of a cloak and dagger approach of doing things and which also then brings me to what you're doing is it's, it's all out there in the public. What you've done is found and navigated through that process to just maximize the income. So if somebody's got a portfolio of a buy to let property, which is kind of barely washing its face right now, especially with Section 24, there's an interesting opportunity for them to repurpose some of them into this model. And not necessarily all overnight, but gradually as maybe they become available, that they can create a much higher income from them. **[14:31] Speaker B:** Yeah, I think so. And you know, I mean, we all like testimonials, right? I mean, this is slightly aside and I just wrote about this somewhere. I like my testimonials to be on LinkedIn. Simple reason, they're visible and you can contact the person. **[14:47] Speaker A:** Yes. **[14:48] Speaker B:** And I like that visibility and I like that transparency and that contactability. **[14:52] Speaker B:** So actually, funnily enough, somebody's just recently left me a testimonial and he said, well, where do you want to share it? I said on LinkedIn because I want people to be able to contact him. So he was a landlord who was in that situation, so not buying a brand new property to set up, but already had some, but struggling to structure it to maximize the rent. To maximize it from the point of view that he knew what they were entitled to but didn't know how to navigate through it. **[15:18] Speaker A:** I **[15:18] Speaker B:** mean the testimony he's written, which is a very nice one, so anybody wants to contact him can do that, I guess. Sorry if there's a horde of people chasing you, but he's told me that by this bit of, as he said, doing My sort of call studies just done and a few email exchanges that we had. He's increased his cash flow on a couple of properties in total. I'm talking about by 700. **[15:39] Speaker A:** Wow. **[15:39] Speaker B:** Net. Okay, so that is not new houses. **[15:43] Speaker A:** Yes. **[15:43] Speaker B:** That's just restructuring it to basically. So the tenants are claiming exactly what the government has said in black and white. They can claim. **[15:51] Speaker A:** Yes. **[15:52] Speaker B:** Not a penny less, **[15:53] Speaker A:** not **[15:53] Speaker B:** a penny more. There's nothing underhand because with universal credit, everything's assessed by the government. Okay. And if it's wrong, they won't give you what you think you should be getting. That's the thing. There is somebody assessing all the applications. **[16:08] Speaker B:** There has to be. **[16:09] Speaker A:** Yeah. It's not that you press a few magic buttons on the computer and it just kind of slips under the net. And I remember some of the early days of understanding how this model works, and one of the things that came up at the time was you need to understand this one way better than the people that operate and run it, that is the local authority, the council. When the application go in, you need to know this much better than them. **[16:31] Speaker A:** So they can't challenge what you're doing because you understand the rules and working within them. **[16:37] Speaker B:** Yeah. And that's got harder because in the early days, as you're kind of talking about, it was the councils that were paying housing benefit. As people will appreciate if they watch the news, everybody is migrating, that's the name of the process, over to universal credit. Now, universal credit, the payments on universal credit, which include housing benefit, is not administered by the council. **[16:57] Speaker B:** It's done remotely by various call centres and it's all online. Okay. So there's a problem because I can't build a relationship with anybody in the local council and it's somebody remote. And we've already found, this is some of my collaborators, that the level of training those people have got is variable. **[17:19] Speaker A:** Yes. **[17:20] Speaker B:** Okay. And even though, you know. You know what the rules are. **[17:24] Speaker A:** Yes, **[17:24] Speaker B:** they don't. **[17:26] Speaker B:** Okay. **[17:26] Speaker A:** I'm just visualizing some of these conversations right now and the frustration that could be. Could be having in some of those. **[17:31] Speaker B:** And so it's very, very important in this particular scenario, because universal credit is online, you know, tenants do. Do not email the Department of Work and Pensions, who control. This is an online journal on how they talk to people at the dwp. And so the tenants need to know. So you have to work with the tenants for your own benefit and theirs, because if the housing benefit's not correct and they're not getting paid **[17:59] Speaker A:** well, **[17:59] Speaker B:** that's arrears building up and I'm not in the business of evicting. **[18:03] Speaker A:** Yes, **[18:03] Speaker B:** okay. And I'm in the business of providing good quality buy to let accommodation for people who frankly, over the years, I mean, I've been doing this 12 years. I mean it's horrendous for some of the places they were living in before they moved to mine, these rogue landlords and some of the regs. I mean I'm a full supporter that I don't think it should exist. Everybody's entitled to. **[18:24] Speaker A:** There's still lots of really poor quality accommodation out there **[18:28] Speaker B:** and sometimes the council can't help it. I'm just processing one at the moment and I spoke to a lady yesterday and it's still ongoing. I've got a house available and I asked her, I said, where are you currently living? She's registered as homeless. The council have found her something while she looks for something in the private rented sector, which is still not easy because most landlords, even though they can't say no to dss, will say find a way. **[18:53] Speaker A:** Yes. Because legally you're not allowed to refuse somebody that's on benefits. And as you said, some landlords who don't want to necessarily go in that sector will kind of navigate around it. **[19:03] Speaker B:** They will and they'll find ways of doing it. And you might say, well, the tenant should complain. Well, we know how long those things can take. So I just generally asked her, I said, you've seen my house. I said, can I ask where you living in? She said, well, the council's put us up in some hotel in my home city. I said, well, what does that look like then? Can you just explain? Because I don't, I don't know what they do. She said, it's her and her daughter who's an adult. **[19:23] Speaker B:** We've got one room and there's a shared kitchen with lots of people. Other than that, we've got the one room with a microwave. I mean, is that any way for a single mom to be living with an 18 year old? I think not. But if the council sold off all its council houses back in the day, well, there's no, you know, we all hear stories where people are living in B B's okay. And the council's paying a lot of money from its own, you know, so it's in their interest to get them moved into private rented. But you couple that with landlords who can't see how they can make that work where some of the market rents, if you're doing standard lha not the model that I'm talking about. Financially, it doesn't make sense. **[20:04] Speaker A:** You've heard the phrase your network is your net worth and you'll also hear it in this particular podcast as well. That's because people in property recognise important importance of being connected with other people. **[20:13] Speaker A:** Property is a people business and that's the reason I've been running a networking event for over a decade now. Each and every month we bring like minded people together. An opportunity for you to come along and meet some of those people and also learn from other people on the stage. Learn from myself as well. So make sure you book onto the next meeting. We're on the third Tuesday of every month in Birmingham now. Let's get back to the podcast. Yes. **[20:33] Speaker B:** So landlords are duty bound almost to say, well, no, because I can't make the numbers **[20:38] Speaker A:** work. **[20:39] Speaker B:** So it becomes a bit of a catch 22, if that makes sense. You know, the council hasn't got anything but the landlord's saying, well, you're not paying enough, you know, so partly it's a monetary thing, but partly, I mean, I, I do it so I provide good quality accommodation. And as we'll talk about, I mean, some of these tenants, because we talk about voids in our industry. **[20:57] Speaker A:** Yeah, **[20:57] Speaker B:** I mean they haven't left for eight, 10 years. **[20:59] Speaker A:** You're telling me before off camera that how long some of the tents have been there and it's just, it's just crazy to think that the tents have been that long. Typically we used to tenant staying maybe a year, two years and they'll move on. But it's all about that tenant demographic. So it's amazing that you get tenants that stay that long. We were talking before off camera and when I think about a lot of our tenants, it might stay a year, maybe two years and that's it and then they're moving on. **[21:23] Speaker A:** And I guess it's about the demographics, understanding that community is not transient. Unlike for example, in our HMOs where they're there for a year maybe and they'll move on and so they're there, they'll make family routes and they're there for a long time. **[21:37] Speaker B:** Look, things happen in families and I'm not going to sit here and say none of my tenancies have collapsed. Where, for example, you've got two sharers, two friends, typically. But generally it's not because of any other reason apart from they've had a fallout and people move out of HMOs **[21:50] Speaker A:** because **[21:51] Speaker B:** they don't get on with the Other tenants. This also happens in my model, not frequently, but I don't want to sit here and say it's never happened. It has happened and we have a plan of what to do if it does. Why do they stay a long time? Well, I think some of the things I've already mentioned, well, it's either that or a room in a bed and breakfast. Okay. Secondly, the properties that they will get, if a landlord is willing to take benefit tenants on, won't be the best. Okay. Probably will be from an uneducated landlord, rogue landlord, whatever you want to call it. I'm not in that game. Mine are accredited. Council comes to see it. Yes, they're basic buy to lets, but they've got all the specification required, they make all the rules of regulation. And because we have licensing even for buy to lets in Nottingham, councils have. **[22:35] Speaker B:** And they do visit the houses. But guess what? I want them to because I want to be in that camp. **[22:41] Speaker A:** Yes. You're providing good quality accommodation. **[22:44] Speaker B:** So you put all that in the mix and aside from the fact that there might be a, a bit of a fallout and the families don't get on or two sharers don't get on, where else are they going to go? If I'm getting the repairs done. Okay. And we're on it immediately, I'm a good landlord. We're very approachable. They have a property manager now in place who they can contact in case we're not around. I think it's a great opportunity for somebody who does, you know, does what they're supposed to, to live in a house for a really long time. **[23:13] Speaker B:** So the costs, you know, we're talking about, we've been talking about the profits, you know, or the rental income. **[23:18] Speaker A:** Yes. **[23:19] Speaker B:** But actually there's always. Well, what's the outgoings? That's all part of the mix, isn't it? When we do, when we do. **[23:24] Speaker A:** So it's not just what's coming in through the door, what's going back out as well. **[23:27] Speaker B:** No. Yeah. **[23:27] Speaker A:** So in this model here, what are your outgoings? **[23:30] Speaker B:** So the outgoings are quite simple. It's a simple unfurnished buy to let. So obviously I have to pay a mortgage on that. **[23:37] Speaker B:** So there's the mortgage. Okay. Now, we all know rates have gone up, but when rates come down, my cash flow, like everybody else's, will increase. Okay. So there's the mortgage. **[23:47] Speaker B:** Okay. Bit of management. Okay. Because we have started now to work, you know, with an agent and maintenance. **[23:54] Speaker A:** Yeah. **[23:55] Speaker B:** And insurance. **[23:56] Speaker A:** Yes. **[23:56] Speaker B:** Okay. Because they stay a long time generally. Well, I. On some of those houses, I haven't had a void for eight to 10 years. Okay. So that's number one. **[24:06] Speaker A:** And that can make quite a significant difference in the buy to let income. When you look at it at the end of the year, if you've had one void tenant changeover, the cost of that, a bit of a refresh and stuff as well, all that just wipes all your profit out. **[24:17] Speaker B:** Yeah. It might be a couple of months before you fill it because somebody has to give notice somewhere else. So that's a month typically. And on top of that, we both know somebody's been there a couple of years with maybe kids or something like that. There's going to be a refresh. **[24:29] Speaker B:** Okay. Maybe some carpets might have to be changed, you know, some painting. That's a cost. **[24:33] Speaker A:** Yes. **[24:33] Speaker B:** Okay. But if they're not leaving, then trust me, I don't go in there mid tenancy and paint the whole house. Sometimes they paint the rooms or they want to change the car, **[24:43] Speaker A:** they start treating it as a home. **[24:44] Speaker B:** They do. And I don't want them to spend that money. But they know they're safe because one of the earliest questions got asked is, is this long term? And I said I'm not selling. **[24:53] Speaker A:** Yes. **[24:53] Speaker B:** And that kind of reassures them. And the only reason tenancies collapse is because something has changed on their side, not on my side. **[25:01] Speaker A:** Yeah. **[25:02] Speaker B:** And that's typically been my 12 years of experience and typically it's been a fallout. **[25:07] Speaker A:** Yes. **[25:07] Speaker B:** You know, I don't get on with so and so I'm off. **[25:09] Speaker A:** Yes. **[25:10] Speaker B:** Okay, I'm leaving. And unfortunately, because both of them are separately claiming housing benefit, they take the housing benefit claim with them to wherever they're going to move to. So that is just. So the person left behind, unfortunately now is in a bit of a predicament because one lot of housing benefit has gone. You'd have the same with an hmo, **[25:27] Speaker A:** Right. **[25:27] Speaker B:** If somebody vacated the room. Well, you're now, if it's a five bed, you're only getting four bed. **[25:31] Speaker A:** Yes. **[25:32] Speaker B:** Or four lots of rent coming. You'd want to fill it more. It's harder with my model **[25:37] Speaker A:** because **[25:37] Speaker B:** they know each other. Okay. In HMOs, you're moving yet another person who will connect with the housemates. It's a slight different thing. So. **[25:46] Speaker A:** So essentially you're, you're setting, letting and forgetting. That's good because the effort is involved in getting it set up correctly. **[25:53] Speaker A:** Just make sure everything's kind of set up correctly. But once that's done and they're in and that claim's then being processed. There's very little for you to do at that. Very little, **[26:01] Speaker B:** but not zero. **[26:02] Speaker B:** Because unfortunately the government, the dwp will ask the tenants for whatever reason, to provide proof of X, Y and Z because they're welfare benefit tenants and there used to be circumstances where the tenants didn't send that in **[26:16] Speaker A:** and **[26:17] Speaker B:** there were quite severe penalties like the housing benefit used to stop under the old system. I've had it happen because for some reason they think they could just switch that off. Well, luckily they've seen sense because you can't switch the housing benefit because there'd be a risk of eviction. **[26:32] Speaker B:** Okay. We've all got running costs. So under universal credit, which is, I always say, the new system, but they've been trying to roll it out for about 12 years, I think. So under universal credit they might sanction them because they haven't attended an interview. **[26:46] Speaker A:** Okay. **[26:47] Speaker B:** But the bit they won't sanction and stop is the housing. **[26:49] Speaker A:** Right. I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was still a case of date. **[26:52] Speaker B:** No. **[26:52] Speaker A:** Then as and don't want this. But they'll just switch it off. **[26:54] Speaker B:** No, they'll stop **[26:55] Speaker A:** their other sense in that. **[26:57] Speaker B:** Yeah, **[26:57] Speaker A:** yeah, **[26:58] Speaker B:** they will stop the other benefits. It's called sanctioning. **[27:00] Speaker A:** Right. **[27:01] Speaker B:** To say you've supposed to come for an interview to double whatever to double check these facts. You've not attended. We're stopping your job seekers allowance and that will hurt them. **[27:09] Speaker A:** Yes. **[27:09] Speaker B:** But luckily they've seen sense that we're not stopping your housing benefit because that will evict them. **[27:13] Speaker A:** Yes. **[27:14] Speaker B:** They'll still struggle because they need money to live on. **[27:16] Speaker A:** Yes. **[27:17] Speaker B:** But it won't be. They're going to, you know, suddenly get a **[27:19] Speaker A:** letter **[27:19] Speaker B:** from, from me to say, well, I'm starting, you know, and I know this whole thing's going on with the renters reform bill and for anybody watching it, all good landlords, nobody purposely evicts the tenant. **[27:30] Speaker A:** Yeah, that's. I mean that's a really interesting thing, really, when you think about section 20 on what is it? A non fault eviction and there's all this roar and noise about, oh, non for eviction. Landlords use it to get rid of people. **[27:42] Speaker A:** But if you think about in reality the times that we've used the Section 21, it's because we've got a challenge with a tenant and this is just the easiest way to get the property back. Because Section 8 often isn't fit for purpose. It doesn't work very well. It doesn't do the job it's supposed to, which is allow you to easily evict a tenant when there's a problem. There is, or antisocial behavior, whatever it might be. **[28:02] Speaker A:** And section 21 is just an easier route to do that. **[28:05] Speaker B:** Yeah. **[28:06] Speaker A:** And if they improved the eviction process and made it fairer, then there wouldn't be an issue. **[28:10] Speaker B:** Yeah. And typically, you know, and we've talked, you know, I mentioned the rogue element, the nrla, and the government calls this retaliatory eviction where the tenant's complaining the boiler hasn't been fixed for three months and the landlord sees fit to say, you're too much trouble. **[28:24] Speaker A:** Yes. I **[28:24] Speaker B:** mean, I disagree with that because I think everybody's entitled to a good home. But I'm not in that camp, okay? You know, we get things fixed really, really quickly. **[28:34] Speaker B:** So actually, as a business, what benefit is there for me to just willy nilly evict tenants? Well, it doesn't **[28:40] Speaker A:** make any sense. **[28:41] Speaker B:** It doesn't make any sense. **[28:41] Speaker A:** Even the business of providing accommodation and collecting rent. **[28:44] Speaker A:** So why would you just want to get rid of good tenants? And **[28:46] Speaker B:** I never have. And I never have. The problems always started from the tenants and not because I'm sick and tired of you asking for repairs. **[28:54] Speaker B:** They're asking for repairs because they're genuine repairs. **[28:56] Speaker A:** Because there's a need and it needs to be dealt with. **[28:58] Speaker B:** And we've got a strong maintenance team that deals with it and we deal with as quick, as quick as possible, you know, depending on the nature of, you know, what the maintenance is. So I don't think the government can lump everybody together. Some landlords do it and it's the age old thing that, you know, a few bad rogue spoil it for everybody. And I think that's what's happened. **[29:18] Speaker A:** So what we've been talking about is a model that's, you know, it's, it's a little bit technical to understand, but once it's up and running, it produce a very good income. But you actually have a separate, slightly more advanced version of this advanced one. **[29:31] Speaker B:** Yeah, well, it's not that advanced. It's just harder for people to appreciate because they don't know the basics. **[29:37] Speaker B:** You know, we always, we were talking about this before, before you can, you know, get to the advanced stuff. You better get the baseline, you know, and the foundations and the fundamentals learned. **[29:48] Speaker A:** Yes. **[29:48] Speaker B:** Okay. Because otherwise you'll just jump ahead and it'd be too early for you to do that. **[29:54] Speaker B:** So it's not advanced in one sense. I Mean, I've renamed some of this terminology. People watching this will say, oh, is this the same as what was called two plus two? Yes, it is, but the rules have changed. So I want everybody to call it the LHA strategy because that will just make it easier and **[30:09] Speaker A:** clearer what we're talking about **[30:11] Speaker B:** and clearer. And then in that LHA strategy, there are just two models that will allow you to maximize your rental income. Model 1 I've just talked about before, where you just get two sharers, two single people, usually friends. And that's it. **[30:25] Speaker A:** Yes, **[30:26] Speaker B:** that's the HMO analogy. So I started this model after I'd had some mentoring. Best to learn it from somebody else who was doing with it. That's my advice. **[30:35] Speaker B:** And he talked about this second model and I didn't get anybody, you know, with that kind of makeup. Then out the blue I was advertising a property and I had a call from a lady and she said, look, I'm living in this one bedroom flat and it's horrible. And the rate at that time was 470 in Nottingham for her as a, as a 45 year old, which she was, I think at the time. That's what she's allowed to claim. The government says so, yeah. So that's what she was getting for a one bed flat. So I said to her, well, actually my flat's on, my house is on for £900. So I'm not really sure why you're rigging me. Have you got somebody else that you're looking to move in with? She said, actually, yes, my daughter who's just given birth, lives in a horrible two bed. **[31:22] Speaker A:** Okay. **[31:23] Speaker B:** And we want to live together. **[31:24] Speaker A:** Yes. **[31:25] Speaker B:** Okay. So that became my model too for the very first time because of that particular scenario. **[31:31] Speaker B:** And what they're claiming, because they're still there. Okay. Is exactly what they claimed. Living separately. **[31:37] Speaker A:** Yes. **[31:38] Speaker B:** So I don't want anybody to think, oh, what's he done? What's he manipulated? Nothing at all. **[31:42] Speaker A:** The **[31:42] Speaker B:** lady was claiming the one bedroom rate because as a single person, the government says you need one bedroom. Here's your rate. And she's over 35. The daughter was claiming what's called a two bedroom rate. Why two? Well, one bedroom for her and one bedroom for the child. **[31:56] Speaker A:** Yes. **[31:57] Speaker B:** She was already claiming that. All that's happened is they've come on under one roof in my lovely three bed house where they've been there, I think it's coming up to eight years this year. And they love it. They absolutely love it. Mum. Well, she's Not a baby anymore. She's attending school. Mum helped, looked after the baby, daughter got mum's help and they claimed exactly what they were claiming. Living in two separate properties, but now under one roof. **[32:21] Speaker A:** And also, it's not that the tenants are compromising and they're accepting something less or lower. In fact, in this case, they're getting a more spacious property, better quality property than what they were in before as well. **[32:33] Speaker B:** That's correct. I mean, I went to see growth. I like to see where they're living. I mean, I'm a bit old school like that. And properties are local, so it's quite easy because it's, you know, we're creatures of habit and I like to look to see, well, how you keeping yours is how you keep mine. I'm not worried about a little bit of mess, **[32:48] Speaker A:** you know, that's a really good point. I'd like to pick up on that. And that's something I learned many years ago. And at the beginning I used to do it and it's one of those things I stopped doing over time because it just wasn't easy to do. The idea of going to see a potential tenant in their existing home because how they're living and how they're treating that property is what they're going to do to yours when they become your tenant. **[33:08] Speaker B:** Yeah, so **[33:09] Speaker A:** much. You can see that. **[33:10] Speaker B:** Yeah. And I'm not nitpicking, you know, if they're messy, they're messy. Okay. I'm looking for overt damage. **[33:16] Speaker A:** Yes. **[33:16] Speaker B:** Where they're taking a hammer, the doors are all falling off the hinges. Now, it could be the landlord's fault. **[33:20] Speaker A:** Yes. **[33:21] Speaker B:** Okay. But I'm looking for an assessment. Now, I don't have hundreds of properties, so at my scale it's possible. But even if you've got hundreds, you've got stuff. Okay. So some of the paperwork, in the early days, I used to do it at their house. Okay. Looking beyond the mess and everything. So **[33:33] Speaker A:** you've got legitimate reason. Go and see them, sit down, let's get this paperwork done. **[33:36] Speaker B:** Plus, if they've got nothing to hide, size, they've got nothing to hide. I mean, you know, what else can I say, you know, and potentially they're going to be with me for a decade plus **[33:45] Speaker A:** anyway. Yeah. **[33:45] Speaker B:** So, yeah, we said a coffee, you know, it's front loaded, this model is front loaded. But once they're in, and apart from a few bumps along the road, there is really not very, very much to do at all. There's no voids going on, minimal Very little. You know, they call my property manager, and she sends a maintenance team out, and, you know, I get paid what they're entitled to. It's a simple. I'm sorry it's not more complicated model. But the setup is the hard, hard part. So this model two, that happened again and again. Okay. So it extended to just two singles, to actually two claims claimants, both claiming housing benefits from within one family. **[34:25] Speaker A:** So this is still not a hmo? **[34:27] Speaker B:** No. **[34:28] Speaker A:** And it's not a HMO this time because they are related in terms of the people in the house. **[34:33] Speaker B:** That's correct. So I had. I've got a family. One of them's left now, so it's changed. And I think they're the ones that coming into eight years. And I asked this question just to test people's knowledge of HMOs. So I had a family, and they've been there, say, about eight years. And it was mum and daughter. **[34:46] Speaker B:** Okay. Who were living together at the time. And two of her sons were. Had disabilities, and I can't remember exactly where they were. And they've all ended up living. **[34:55] Speaker B:** And they're all claiming separately. Yeah. Mum and daughter. Son. Son. **[34:59] Speaker A:** Hey, if you enjoyed this podcast with Raj Berry and you'd like to learn more about this particular strategy that Raj uses, then I've got some great news for you. Raj has agreed to do a free online session where he'll go into more details around the tactics and the strategies that he uses. So make sure you register for that. The link is on the screen now, and we'll also put it in the description for you. So get registered now. And let's get straight back to the podcast. So it's not one head of the household is making a claim for the house. It's each one's entitled for their own claims, and that's what they're doing. **[35:25] Speaker B:** Yeah, but they were in different places. Well, the one was living in hmo, he shouldn't have been because he had some mental problems and everything. **[35:31] Speaker B:** So I say to people, okay, that's three claims under one roof. And people will shout hmo. But you know, and I know that if you know the definition of hmo, it has to be more than one household. **[35:42] Speaker A:** Yes. **[35:42] Speaker B:** And a mum with daughter, with two sons is only one household, you see? So not an HMO again. And that's about knowing the facts. Now, that's not typical what I call, you know, three claims, triple claim. Typically, it's two claimants in each house, and there could be two singles model, one or There could be two claimants, you know, where there could be children involved. And then it gets more complicated. Like you said, it's advanced because the government seen fit to then say, well, what are the ages of the kids? What are the genders? Because that all comes into the mix. Very difficult to explain in conversation. But as I said to you at coffee, I've got an article that came out in ypn. **[36:17] Speaker B:** So if anybody watching this wants to reach out, it's better read. **[36:21] Speaker A:** Yes. Then **[36:22] Speaker B:** listen to if that makes sense. Yeah. **[36:23] Speaker B:** So I talk about it in there **[36:25] Speaker A:** and you know, we touched on earlier on scientists by background. PhD, been worked at AstraZeneca for what, 20 odd years. And so what created this shift to I want now be a full time landlord because you were very comfortable doing what you're doing, very good at what you're doing. **[36:44] Speaker B:** Yeah, full time came a bit later. **[36:46] Speaker B:** But you know, I was already investing while I was at AstraZeneca. They had a great scheme for investing in their own shares. Yes. And I've always put money aside into unit trusts and all the rest of nothing like heavy handed stocks and shares trading, but always put money aside into funds. Okay. AstraZeneca shares. And I just got this thing, you know, a few years ago to say, yeah, people always talk about property. So I made a few mistakes. Okay. I mean, I tell everybody this anyway. Up in the Northeast, **[37:14] Speaker A:** most investors have. That's part of the journey, part of the learning and some of this education is about how to avoid mistakes. That's essentially what we do. **[37:21] Speaker B:** And I remember when I did some training with somebody and he was really pushing me, he said, yeah, you could become a full time property investor. Da, da da, da da. And I just. A look of horror was coming over my face when I was having a drink with him, he said, what's the matter? I said, I don't want to leave my work. Oh, well, you didn't have to, you know. He then backtracked because he realized actually that's that wasn't my job. **[37:41] Speaker A:** You can enjoy your job as well. It's not a case necessarily. You want to get out your job to invest in property. **[37:45] Speaker B:** So I just started property as a side hustle. **[37:48] Speaker B:** Okay. Which was going to run alongside my enjoyable job as lead scientist at AstraZeneca because that's what I trained to be, you know, as you say, with a degree and a PhD and then a corporate career all at one employer, which I, I think is unheard of these days. But I liked it there. So I stayed so the portfolio was just kind of building in the background. I had education and all the rest of it and then just totally out the blue and I mean, I said to you. Coffee. That I'm a reluctant full time property investor, you know, we've got reluctant landlords, you know, and all the rest of it. I'm a reluctant full time property investor because something dramatic happened in 2010, 2011, and AstraZeneca, which is a global company, actually decided to close the research and development site at Loughborough, which is where I was at that time. **[38:35] Speaker B:** I did. Manchester and Loughborough, two sites it was going to shut, not job losses. **[38:40] Speaker B:** 900 people they were going to close, dragged out for a year. Because being a blue chip company, there have to be employee representations to say, look, there's an alternative model here, went through due process. But at the end of the day, you know, December 31st, which is where my contract was, 2011, the door shut, 1st of January, 2012, I woke up and now I'm a full time property investor, you know, and a reluctant one at that. So that bit wasn't in my plan. **[39:10] Speaker A:** Yes. **[39:10] Speaker B:** Okay. Because I quite like what I did and I suppose my scientist head is still lurking in there somewhere. Yeah. So it just came, came about **[39:19] Speaker A:** at that point. **[39:20] Speaker A:** The. You already had, you acquired some property. **[39:23] Speaker B:** That's right. **[39:24] Speaker A:** Was that property sufficient to live on for you? And because I'll talk about her wife as well in the moment because she's working as well and then involved in the property business as well. **[39:32] Speaker B:** Yeah, my, my needs were just about being covered and in the early days, our mutual. **[39:37] Speaker A:** Covering your needs as opposed to covering what was your salary. **[39:40] Speaker B:** Yeah, I mean it was getting close and the decision not to pursue science at that point was a personal one. I have three children, they're adults now, they were all in local schools and we have lived in Manchester, a few other places as well. And I thought, well, I'm not relocating. **[39:56] Speaker A:** Yes, **[39:56] Speaker B:** again. And science, again, you know what we're talking about today, lha, the stuff I did in science. Very niche. **[40:03] Speaker A:** Yes. **[40:03] Speaker B:** I would have definitely had to relocate to probably London, that sort of area. And my wife said, I don't want to move again. So reluctantly I gave up. I was very close to actually touching my salary. And of course, because I was at AstraZeneca for 22 years, the payout was a good decent six figures. **[40:22] Speaker B:** I had thousands of shares which I eventually sold all of them because I thought, right, if I'm going into property, **[40:28] Speaker A:** yes, **[40:28] Speaker B:** that's where my income is going to Come from **[40:30] Speaker A:** liquidity investments, had the redundancy package as well. And that. **[40:33] Speaker A:** And also by that time you'd already been building up some income. In that case, how do I build and scale this? As I said, in a reluctant way, because it was never really the intention. **[40:41] Speaker B:** Yeah, it was in a reluctant way. And I remember leading up to that date of 31st of December 2011, because, you know, you've worked in corporate. It's a very structured, you know, I'm not talking nine to five. It's a structured environment. Okay. So that scared me as much as loss of some income because obviously the wage was going to stop. So this structure that was going to disappear and I was going to wake up. **[41:03] Speaker A:** Yes. **[41:04] Speaker B:** Be my own boss. Scared the pants off me. It really did. And so while I was still AstraZeneca and they supported it really well and they gave me actually some money to go and do some training. I thought, I'm going to be a letting agent alongside my portfolio. And I actually landed a job just before I left AstraZeneca. So that was my first job in property and I became the NRLA rep. **[41:25] Speaker A:** Oh, I remember that. For **[41:26] Speaker B:** three years. Not for the money because I didn't pay that well, but structure. **[41:30] Speaker A:** Yes. **[41:31] Speaker B:** I needed something that had structure and I had to run their local meetings and a lot of other bits and bobs meet with the council. So I did that for three years actually. **[41:39] Speaker B:** And that helped the transition because I think it's quite tough just, you know, suddenly happens, **[41:46] Speaker A:** switching overnight. Yes, it **[41:47] Speaker B:** is. And that transition really helped the monetary side. I knew what was going to be paid to me and how many shares I had. So I thought, yeah, I'm going to be able to make it. And so I became, you know, we don't, like nobody likes the word financially free, but financially independent of a wage. **[42:03] Speaker A:** Yes, **[42:04] Speaker B:** very shortly. **[42:05] Speaker A:** Yeah, **[42:05] Speaker B:** just through more acquisitions. **[42:07] Speaker A:** So what. What did you do at that stage and did you go on to do more property? Because I know we would lettings and various other things I know you're involved with as well. **[42:15] Speaker A:** But for the benefit, the listeners and viewers just kind of explain what happened next. **[42:19] Speaker B:** So I obviously had the role as NRA rep, which brought a little bit of income in. I started taking on some properties mainly from friends and family. We got to an amazing number of 12 in lettings. So I was getting a bit of income from that. At which point I decided it's not really what I like. So slowly that kind of fizzled out, I have to say. Either you grow. **[42:36] Speaker A:** Yes. **[42:37] Speaker B:** Or you enjoy it and you're happy. **[42:39] Speaker A:** Lettings is very hard on a micro scale **[42:42] Speaker B:** and I didn't even like it at the microscale so I thought, no, I don't want to get into that world. So it kind of just fizzled out. To be quite honest with you. It was fine. There were friends and family and over time some of them wanted to sell anyway and there were reluctant landlords in the first place. So it kind of all worked out. I added to the portfolio because it's not. I wasn't even doing the LHA stuff at that point. **[43:01] Speaker A:** Yes. **[43:01] Speaker B:** My portfolio, as you rightly said earlier, was small portfolio buy to let. We got into the student HMO market in Nottingham. So that became the next few acquisitions in Nottingham. And of course, as you know, done properly, HMOs can give you quite significant income. So that actually helped not only me, but also within a, within a year or within a couple of years also matched my wife's **[43:25] Speaker A:** wage. **[43:26] Speaker B:** And then she by coincidence lost her second job. **[43:29] Speaker A:** Yes. **[43:29] Speaker B:** And they're ruthless when they get rid of you, you know. And at that point she was looking for another one. She's it. And I said, why don't you just help behind the scenes? You know, the management side, we were self managing. We've learned how to do that pretty well and do the paperwork, the admin, the tax returns. Why don't we just try it for six months? Because I think it's really important to try it. Can man and wife get on as business partners? And generally we do. Okay. Not always. **[43:55] Speaker B:** There's a few fireworks. And secondly, can the business afford it? **[43:58] Speaker A:** Yes. **[43:59] Speaker B:** To pay your wage. I mean she never went back to work. **[44:03] Speaker A:** Yes. **[44:03] Speaker B:** After that. 6. **[44:04] Speaker A:** I remember having a conversation with you both in those early days and she was a little reluctance of her going into the business full time, whether that's something she wanted to do. **[44:11] Speaker B:** Yeah. And I think that's really important to sort out. And it took us a while, I won't lie. We were, you know, I call it kind of just too much overlap of what we were doing, I **[44:20] Speaker A:** think. But it was a complete change from what you're both doing to coming into this. So it was. You're trying to find your feet as well. **[44:25] Speaker B:** That's right. And you know, I'm not your typical Asian. I don't have any family who do business and certainly no property investors. So it was very new. I know it's, it's a strange thing to say from an Asian background, but we don't, you know, we're all we're all educated corporate kind of people. And she was in corporate, I was in corporate. So it was a big learning and as well as learning to work together. And I think as time went on we avoided that overlap of what she did and what I did initially I was getting her into go look at right move and all the rest of it. But slowly our roles have become more her property management with input from me as required because you can't totally distance yourself and me more on the investment side. And as we'll touch on over that time, you know, I've taken on role as coaching and mentoring for an organization. **[45:08] Speaker B:** I've also become co editor of YPN. It's the Academic. **[45:11] Speaker A:** Your property network. **[45:12] Speaker A:** Yeah, **[45:13] Speaker B:** YPN, your property network magazine. I mean it's been going 15 years and I've always been a subscriber actually since. Since issue one. And so I joined the team because there was an opportunity there. **[45:24] Speaker B:** I think it just feeds into my intellectual side, **[45:27] Speaker A:** not my issue one. Do you think might be worth something on ebay? **[45:30] Speaker B:** It could be. I haven't kept mine, but yeah. **[45:32] Speaker B:** So yeah, I think it just appealed to my, you know, educational kind of side. You know, interviewing people, writing the article because you want to. When you move from one sector to another, we always talk about transferable skills and I had a lot of those, ability to write, you know, as part of my job, transferable skills and that just tapped into that. So I thought again, the pay isn't phenomenal but actually the network has increased hugely and that, you know, it's worth its weight and salt, you know, because I can pick up phones to lots of people who I've interviewed and they've all said yeah, anytime you need help. So actually that's worth a lot more than the hourly rate I get. **[46:13] Speaker B:** But it keeps my intellect high, keeps me in the flow of information. **[46:17] Speaker B:** So yes, I'm very niched in a couple of things that are part of my portfolio, but I'm actually very well read. **[46:23] Speaker A:** Yes. So although you operate in a niche, a very small and tight niche, as you said, your knowledge is fairly broad in property because the number of people you speak to and the in depth conversations that you have, that's one of the reasons I enjoy doing this as well. Catch up with people who haven't seen for some time and just understand what people are doing or what they're up to. **[46:43] Speaker A:** So in your role as co editor of the magazine, you'll see lots of people doing different types of things. Where do you see the direction of travel in the coming year, two years with property investors. **[46:58] Speaker B:** I mean, I don't think the rental business is ever going to die as art. You know, mutual trainer used to say, tell both of us we live on an island, the population's going **[47:08] Speaker A:** up, **[47:08] Speaker B:** the government's not building enough. **[47:10] Speaker A:** Yeah. **[47:10] Speaker B:** Well, you don't need a degree in economics to work out what the consequence of that is. We don't need to really touch on that. Rents are going up because there's not enough stock. **[47:19] Speaker B:** Okay. So I don't think that rental. Unless something dramatic happens. **[47:23] Speaker A:** Yes. **[47:23] Speaker B:** I don't think that rental market is ever going to change. **[47:27] Speaker B:** That's all I do. So that's all I can really comment on from a experience point of view. The other side of it is, you know, you buy something, develop it and sell it. Now obviously the costs of all that have gone up, the refurbishment materials. So that's for people to do the due diligence on. **[47:43] Speaker B:** Okay. To see if that's, that's what they want to do. Not everybody wants tenants. Okay. I've always, I've always been into recurring income. **[47:50] Speaker A:** Yes. **[47:51] Speaker B:** To be quite honest with you, not quite set and forget, but set and pretty much forget. **[47:54] Speaker A:** Yeah. Your model is, it's fairly hands up. Whereas my high cash flow generators, professional HMOs, service accommodation, they both require time, energy resources systems to keep them working and generating the cash. **[48:10] Speaker B:** Probably stuff. **[48:11] Speaker A:** Yes, **[48:11] Speaker B:** I don't have any. **[48:12] Speaker A:** Yes, **[48:13] Speaker B:** okay. I don't have any stuff. Okay. Because that was a conscious decision we made that we're only going to get the portfolio as big as me and my wife. Yes, I have contractors, obviously, and now we've taken on a property manager to lighten the load for my wife on the management, but I don't have stuff. They're all paid for fee, you know, you pay them a fee to do the work and that's it. **[48:30] Speaker A:** Because you can outsource bits and bits and pieces of things that you need to do and that's quite an important thing. And we were talking about this before off camera as well that, you know, we know a lot of the same people as well and some people are ambitious, they want to build empires and, and, but actually it doesn't necessarily have to be in that direction. It's a case of have we got enough that replaces the income that we used to have from day jobs and what we've done, we bought all our time back. And you're a super busy guy still, although you don't have a full time job. So tell me about some of the things that you're doing, how you're spending your time at the moment. **[49:03] Speaker B:** I mean, the thing is. I mean, we were talking over coffee about this, and another thought that's just occurred to me is that if your financial needs are met now. What? **[49:12] Speaker A:** Yes. **[49:13] Speaker B:** Okay. **[49:13] Speaker A:** Often people don't think about that. **[49:15] Speaker B:** They don't. **[49:15] Speaker A:** So if you didn't have to go to work tomorrow, but the money kept coming in, what would you do? **[49:19] Speaker B:** Yeah. And for some people, and that's a personal decision, and I'm not here to say it's one way versus the other, you have to reconcile it within yourself and your family circumstances. Your individual circumstances are going to be different. So you have to think about that. You know, what's right for you. For me, we never really wanted to scale large, large, large. And when your financial needs are met, then I would hope that at some point, people, as they grow older and they got families, sort of think like I do, that time is the thing that you're not going to get any more of. **[49:51] Speaker B:** So you don't want to be the, you know, the richest person in the graveyard, all that sort of stuff. But it is a personal decision. Some people wake up to breathe live property. And I get it, okay? Because it is very addictive, you know, doing that deal once the deal is done. But trust me, as I say in my talks, if you're in the rental sector and it's not occupied. **[50:12] Speaker A:** Yes. **[50:12] Speaker B:** You're in trouble. **[50:13] Speaker A:** Yes. **[50:14] Speaker B:** And I really don't care what. Brr. You did on it, okay. If you're going to rent it out, that's where your cash flow and your lifestyle's created. And the deal is just to allow you to refinance to do another deal. But if you're in the rental sector, that occupancy is paramount. **[50:31] Speaker A:** Yes. **[50:31] Speaker B:** Because that is what we know. We both know that **[50:33] Speaker A:** that's the money coming in through the tills. If there's no money coming through the tills, there's no business. Yeah. **[50:37] Speaker C:** Hey, if you enjoyed this podcast with Raj Berry and you'd like to learn more about this particular strategy that Raj uses, then I've got some great news for you. Raj has agreed to do a free online session with where he'll go into more details around the tactics and the strategies that he uses. So make sure you register for that. The link is on the screen now, and we'll also put it in the description for you. So get registered now. And let's get straight back to the podcast. **[50:58] Speaker B:** So I get it. You know, it's a 2st. I call it a two stage process acquisition. **[51:02] Speaker A:** Yes. **[51:02] Speaker B:** Then maximize your rent. **[51:03] Speaker A:** Yeah. **[51:04] Speaker B:** Simple. Okay. Not simple to do, but the principles are simple. So over the years, because I have valued that and I was at a bit of a crossroads and so there's a book recommendation here, actually, my broker sent me a book because she said, raj, when is enough enough? I said, because I was saying, well, what shall I do now? What shall I do now? That kind of stuff. So she said, I'll send you a book, strange enough, called Enough. **[51:29] Speaker A:** Yes. **[51:30] Speaker B:** Written by an IFA and the. The essence, very readable. Okay. **[51:35] Speaker B:** And the essence of it is, is that what if you've already got enough, but you carry on working for another 10 years. **[51:40] Speaker A:** Yes. And **[51:41] Speaker B:** as he says in the book, those hills you can climb at 60, you can't do it. 70. **[51:44] Speaker A:** Yes. Yeah, that's very true. **[51:46] Speaker B:** It's worth knowing because we don't think about it. **[51:48] Speaker A:** Yes. **[51:49] Speaker B:** So she sent me that book, I read it and I literally called Time on the busyness that I had. And I thought, well, what else? What else is it with the time I've got that I want to do? So hobbies are always there, aren't they? When I get time. Okay. But it's saying it and then doing it. So I've just grabbed a bunch of hobbies that I do then. I've always wanted to do charity work, so that fills part of my week. So it's a combination of those and keeping an eye on our portfolio. And obviously, so it sounds like a really busy week, but generally it's actually quite a nice blend of property and non property stuff that I do on a week by week basis and I think that's quite nice. **[52:28] Speaker A:** Yes. I think something we probably both learned at similar time as well is that success is not a destination, it's a journey. So you want to enjoy the journey of what you're doing. It's not about when I get there, I'm going to do X, Y, Z. **[52:39] Speaker B:** That's right. And **[52:40] Speaker A:** you've also got a little YouTube channel that's not about property. So. **[52:43] Speaker B:** No. So one of the hobbies is singing. And I know people say, what? Yes, it is singing. So it's something I've always been interested in and it started seriously in about five years ago, but. And I just do it for pleasure. **[52:54] Speaker A:** And this is Bollywood music. **[52:55] Speaker B:** Bollywood song. So you can go and check it. It's just called Raj Berry Sings S I N G S It's there. I haven't got a million followers. It Wasn't intended for that, but it just gives me a little bit of escape. **[53:06] Speaker A:** Yes. **[53:06] Speaker B:** I rehearse the song as best I can, then I record it and it's on the YouTube channel. But more recently I've started to use that because, you know, there's a really good thing that. If you can combine hobby with another benefit. **[53:17] Speaker A:** Yes. What **[53:18] Speaker B:** a great thing to do. So I've actually raised for a school in India that I support. I think it's touching £10,000, but actually just giving, you know, concerts. I mean, I'm no professional singer. **[53:27] Speaker B:** People say I'm a decent singer. I'm not giving any. Any tunes today. Yeah. So I'm not giving you any tunes today. You could check it out. But I've managed to raise over £10,000 for a school support in India. And that's a lot of money. **[53:39] Speaker A:** That is a huge amount of money. In a place where there's poverty, that can make a huge difference. **[53:44] Speaker B:** Yeah. And that, because we're both. Our values are very high on education. That is my highest value for that school and it is. That's what I chose for my charity. There's plenty of other charities and I do use my time locally to help homeless charity, but the money I make from anything that I do do is actually sent to them to help educate those kids so they get better jobs. It's a simple, simple objective, to be quite honest with you, because they are underprivileged and they do live in shanty towns and, you know, their parents do work menial jobs and they're stuck in that poverty **[54:18] Speaker A:** trap. It makes a huge difference. **[54:20] Speaker B:** Yeah, Huge difference. So that's really nice. I've been out there for a couple of weeks and I've. I've taught in the classroom just to actually know which charity I'm working with. I actually spent a couple of weeks out there doing that. So that's the only charity I spoke. **[54:32] Speaker B:** I actually support from a monetary basis. The rest of it. Charity, as we were saying, is time and money. The time part of the charity is done in the uk, because obviously I'm here in the uk, so I do a few different things week to week, and it just fills the week, you know, with. With property and non property. And **[54:50] Speaker A:** you're not under pressure that I have to do this. It's really about having the choices and that's really what property does and that's ultimately what got us into it in the first place. It's a case of, well, if I could generate income from property, that'll Give me choices to do other things and choice in terms of how we want to spend our time. **[55:06] Speaker B:** And that choice, as I was just saying, it's yours to make once you get to that place. And if you want to scale and suddenly become the biggest landlord in the uk, well, that's a choice you're going to have to make. And we're not here to say you should do this, but you've got to get there first. **[55:20] Speaker A:** Yes. **[55:20] Speaker B:** Okay. And not stop until step one is usually matched your wage. **[55:25] Speaker A:** Yes. **[55:26] Speaker B:** Plus some. **[55:27] Speaker A:** Yes. **[55:27] Speaker B:** Yeah. So the rainy **[55:29] Speaker A:** day fund as well. Yeah, **[55:29] Speaker B:** yeah. Plus there's a little bit of, you know, there's a little bit of buffer. Okay. We talk about, you know, buffers having a buffer. Boiler goes down. We had three go down one year. I mean it's ridiculous. Okay, but because there's a buffer there. **[55:41] Speaker B:** Not that I wanted to spend. This is a few years ago. Not that I wanted to spend 5,000. But that's what happened because the plumber said, well, I wouldn't fix this because he's literally going to be replacing every part here. So you've got to have **[55:52] Speaker A:** those old Potterden and Valium boilers that used to last forever these days a new boiler even with a five year guarantee. As soon as it gets to five years and one day it's dead. **[56:01] Speaker B:** Yeah. I think they've programmed it to self destruct after five years. They deny it, but I've seen reports. **[56:07] Speaker B:** Conspiracy, kind of. **[56:09] Speaker A:** Raj, I've really enjoyed catching up with you. And what's the best way for people to connect with. You mentioned LinkedIn earlier. What's, what's your preference if someone to reach out and connect with you? **[56:17] Speaker B:** I haven't quite got onto Instagram yet. Maybe if I had stuff not **[56:20] Speaker A:** tick tock either yet then. **[56:21] Speaker B:** Hey, **[56:22] Speaker A:** Tick tock. **[56:22] Speaker B:** No, no. That would go **[56:24] Speaker A:** well for your music. **[56:25] Speaker B:** Here's. Here's an interesting thought that I often say to people. **[56:28] Speaker B:** I think everybody would agree. Property is long form content. **[56:32] Speaker A:** Yes. **[56:33] Speaker B:** Yeah, **[56:33] Speaker A:** yeah. So this is what we talk about, long form. But it's, it's not a two minute or a one minute video. **[56:37] Speaker B:** And I just think, you know, YouTube videos where somebody is explaining something. Magazine articles, I count those all as long form content. I think TikTok is short form content because that seems to be the attention span. But I don't think it's the right content to give you the. **[56:52] Speaker A:** It's out of context. It's **[56:53] Speaker B:** out of context. It's clickbait and all the rest of it. **[56:55] Speaker B:** Fancy title. You click it and it's something else. So LinkedIn is where I am and that's where my reviews are left. I will stick them on the website but you know when you see a review which says Dave, you know, I don't think well who, who the, who the hell is Dave? You know, so LinkedIn I'm quite active on Facebook because one of my roles for, for YPN magazine is to actually find investors. **[57:15] Speaker B:** People are doing projects to feature them in the magazine. So that's part of my role. Link tree will take you through to, you know, the website and the YouTube channel that I've got which is not very active but it should be, I should be putting stuff on there. But yeah people I'm quite reachable to be quite honest with you. I'm not, I'm not a million miles away so that's easy. **[57:34] Speaker A:** Thank you so much. Thank **[57:35] Speaker B:** you very much for your time. Thanks. **[57:41] Speaker A:** Sam.