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The speaker opens with a prayer and introduces the challenge of explaining eternal punishment in a way that people will hear. He frames the topic as a serious biblical doctrine that must be presented with compassion and clarity.
this is a faith defender's audio presentation with author lecturer and christian apologist dr bob maury father we come to you lord and we realize that your word gives us some very sober teaching it reminds us that it isnot by chance that we learn in the world that when we break the rules of nature there are painful consequences when we break the rules of the family there are painful consequences when we break the rules of societyonce again there are painful consequences and when we break your laws your precepts your statutes and your holy covenant there are painful consequences we realize we live in a day in an age in which people don't want tothink about it they don't even have the concept of punishment anymore prisons have become correctional institutions the penal aspect of the law in which guilty criminals are put to death often denied by liberal clergymen marching around with signs
but father your word is clear that we are criminals we have violated your laws and we stand guilty before the bar of justice and father we ask now that you would teach us how to approach this doctrine insuch a way that we can gain people's ears and we can remove a lot of the garbage that they've heard that the truth of the gospel will penetrate and that we will learn to have compassion for the lossand that we will be moved by the perishing world all around us we pray these things in christ's name amen as i've meditated on the issue of how best to approach the subject of eternal conscious torment of criminalsin hell it came to my mind i believe through the holy spirit that we should follow the example of the great baptist preacher charles spurgeon some of you may have read some of his sermons they are indeed works
of art like george whitefield before him spurgeon was an orator in his own day who had no equal it's like whitfield was asked how is it he could even pronounce words that moved audiences and the newspaper reporter saidwould you say the word mesopotamia in such a way to bring everyone to tears and whitfield said before thousands messe potamia and he was able to say it with such pathos such passion and such grief people broke downand wept then he said the word mesopotamia was such joy the people started shouting hallelujah we must remember that the great days of preaching simply had to do with the fact that there was a clarity in the truthpreached and a willingness to do so and to engage in controversy and not to ignore truth because it isn't popular spurgeon stood alone in his day he was maligned he was lampooned in the local newspapers there in london
they called him a dinosaur they said he belonged in the age of the puritans and he was born a hundred years too late he needed to get with modern times with the theory of evolution and with modern criticismand in the famous downgrade controversy even the baptists turned against him as they went into liberalism but spurgeon stood alone he stood even his son back down that was the greatest grief that one of his sons gave wayto liberalism but he stood there as the rock of gibraltar when the waves of ridicule and mockery he simply ignored them and when he approached the doctrine of hell he announced he was going to preach a sermon onwheeling away the rubbish it's probably some of you have the problem in your backyard some rubbish some junk that shouldn't be there a bicycle you meant to repair but it's rusted and well your son is now 35 maybe
you ought to give up on that bike pieces of wood you know how some of you people are you collect things it's rubbish spurgeon says as you're going to approach a controversial issue it is sometimes best to takethe wheelbarrow and to remove the rubbish the trash so that you can get to the truth unimpeded and as i've prayed about it the lord said bob you've got to wheel away the rubbish the rubbish the first pileof rubbish has to do with an ad hominem attack on the character and motives of those who believe in the doctrine of hell it comes from an article in psychology today which suggested that the doctrine of hell issuited for those who are psychopaths who feel somehow some grotesque pleasure and fiendist delight in the pain and suffering of human beings the article went on to say that the doctrine of hell is only for those who like
to think of people suffering who enjoy the idea give it to them harry burn them baby burn them and only a sick person could conceivably accept defend and rejoice in such a monstrous doctrine of hell that has givenchildren nightmares since time immemorial matter of fact it suggested that sunday school should be outlawed as a form of child abuse because if you tell children they're sinners and you tell them there's a day of judgment and there'sa hell you have frightened them and you've given them a bad self-image they might think they're sinners
This section addresses the claim that belief in hell reflects psychological cruelty, then turns to Ezekiel 18. The speaker emphasizes that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and desires repentance and life.
well you see is it the case that if you believe that there is eternal conscious torment awaiting the damned does this mean somehow you are perverted psychologically your motivation has been defiled and you secretly like the masochistic typeof stuff in sadis is that what it means well the question is actually asked in ezekiel 18 and verse 23 would you please turn with me you see the world would love simply to dismiss this doctrine is apsychological aberration not worthy of refutation see they want to simply avoid it and the easy way to avoid something is just simply to broad brush it with some kind of psychological pablum which you could declare that anyone whobelieves that is a nut case mentally ill someone who enjoys plucking the wings off of fliesbut we have a question and this question is stated in verse 23 by none other than god himself do i have any pleasure in the death of the wicked declares yahweh adonai rather than that he should turn from
his ways and live notice a question mark here in the midst of his discussion of the fact that there are painful consequences to sin we are told in this very chapter that when someone goes astray from the covenantthat he will most surely die that's why we are told the soul that sinneth he the person that sends he shall die well having spoken about the fact that people are going to die he deals with the issueof whether or not the son should bear the punishment for the father verse 19 why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity when the son has practiced justice and righteousness and observed all my statutesand done them he shall surely live the person who sins will what die now it sounds cold-hearted sounds as if god just said well if you sin you're dead you're dead meat that's it but this question probes our
deepest ideas of god do we conceive of god as a fiend who delights in the torture of innocent people does god take any pleasure any delight does it give him any amusement to think of people roasting in thesaphiric fires of perdition and he asked the question do you think i have some pleasure in the death of the wicked do you think that's why i gave the law do you really think that i get off onthisor do you think rather that i take pleasure when people turn from their evil ways and live
The speaker explains how distorted views of earthly fathers can lead people to project a harsh image onto God. He argues that God’s justice is real, but his desire is for people to turn and live rather than perish.
this immediately divides those who have mean views of god and let me tell you they're in the churches by the thousands in my counseling as a pastor for almost three decades constantly i would deal with people who hadmean views of god god is after me he doesn't love me he doesn't understand me he didn't give me what i wanted i hate himthere are many professing christians who think that god is an ogre and god is a kill joy and he wants you miserable
he wants to hurt you he has nothing better to do in the universe than to ruin your day here's a young mother you say have you dedicated your child to christ oh i can't do that why because godwill kill my son
now one second you're going to offer your child to god yeah then then you'll kill him what kind of god is that you see people can have mean views of god because they have a had a mean dadthey have no capacity because they never had a father who cared for them who loved them who was patient perhaps their parents only had conditional love
my parents being heathen would say things i don't love you never did you were a mistake there was a pinhole in the latex that nightand when a child learns your daddy or your mother love you only when you're good and when you're bad what do they say i don't love you anymore and then they become christians and guess what they project upongod he didn't love me he didn't care i said you're talking about your parents don't project that upon the almightywhen i decided to get married and then we decided to have children and ask that god would bless us i read all the verses as a father has compassion upon his children even so the lord will have compassionand pity upon his own and i realized ah i've got to model god to my children i've got to show them the kind of dad whose love is unconditional i didn't say unconditional gratitude and unconditional approval i can
say you did something bad and there are painful consequences coming but never forget that i love you and i'm happy to say with our two kids they have told me that they've never doubted not for one second thatthey were loved by their parents that isn't a problem with them but parents may i tell you do not make your love for your children conditional and do not be violent towards your children and give them the wrongview of what it means when we say god the father because you can be screwed up in your vision of god and that's why god says do you think i take any pleasure in the death of the wickeddo you think i like being the judge of the universe what do you think i would rather do bless someone or curse them take them to heaven or dash them into hell well that's a question well now you
look at verse 32.
i have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies
declares adolesce
and on the basis of the fact that god does not take any fiendish pleasure no delight no joy is derived when anyone dies righteous or unrighteous saved or lost that's why jesus wept at the tomb of lazarus becausedeath itself is the great enemy and jesus swept because death had even taken his friend lazarus and because god takes no pleasure in the death of anyonetherefore repent and live do you see the textbecause god would rather you get saved tonight than you be damned tonight god would rather you get on the road to heaven the pilgrim's pathway and take it with the other pilgrims and the saints then be on thatbroad way that leads to the bottomless pit to perdition or again chapter 33 just going to keep with ezekiel you see chapter 33 of ezekiel
Using Ezekiel 33, the speaker presses the call to repent and describes preaching hell with tears rather than glee. He also shares personal experiences and insists that his belief in hell comes from Scripture, not enjoyment of the doctrine.
starting at verse 10 for the context now as for you son of man say to the house of israel thus you have spoken saying surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us and we're rotting away in themhow then can we survive say to them as i live declares adonai ave i take no pleasure in the death of the wicked but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live now comes the exhortation turnback turn back from your evil ways why then will you die oh house of israel you can feel the passion why why come in dime the master calleth come and dine you may eat at jesus table all thetime he who fed the multitudes turned the water into wine to the hungry calleth now come and dine why the banquet has been spread christ has paid it all on calvary's tree tis but for thee to come with
empty hands and receive the gift of eternal life you see god swears by his own existence as i live on the basis of the fact that i exist you must understand i take no pleasure in the death ofthe wicked i don't go hey
if you want to know where my heart is i would rather that the wicked turn from his way and live and then he gets personal and looks into the faces of the people listening turn back from what turnback from the path that leads to hell turn turn why then will you die o house of israel no there are no evil perverse psychological motivations at work in the doctrine of hell nowhere does the bible say thatgod or his people take pleasure or delight in the fact that criminals will be punished for all eternity without remedy without stopping day or night instead the child of god preaches the doctrine of hell with the tear inhis eye you must say to your mom mom i love you i remember weeping before my mother before she died and i'm afraid to say died without christ and she said why are you upset i said mama you're
not saved mama you're going to hell she said don't cry you'll get an ulcermy tears did not move her not one iota
you have a dad a mom a brother and you think why what did god ever do to you that you have to reject him what did jesus ever do to you that you slap him in the face andreject the son of god dear child of god when you speak of hell we do not speak of it with glee may i tell you the only reason i believe in it is because the bible teaches it inmy lifetime two people have called me who were old friends i mean when i say old like since i was 18.john riscook who's now in glory called me out of the blue found me through the ministry and said this is john riscook your old roommate from college oh john it's been what 25 years whatever it was do youstill believe i said yes more than ever john he said you know i told my mom if someone has figured a way out of christianity it'd be bob maury i said oh i've tried when it comes to the
doctrine of hell i've read the best wigglers in the universe none other than the great seventh-day adventist theologian leroy froome who wrote two volumes about a thousand pages each to prove you have no soul you do not existbeyond the grave so breathe easy there's no hell waiting for you oh that's two thousand two thousand oh yes two thousand pages in which by hook or crook he was going to do in the doctrine of hell andthen you have this little peon pipsqueak ed fudge who threatened to sue me i kept his letter my book death in the afterlife came out and i referred to his book as argumentum inaudible
he gave ignorant arguments he was so mad he was going to sue me i says go ahead i could use the publicity may i tell you something i don't like the doctrine of hell my mother and father aredead it may be the quite fact that's where they are my grandfather's there i've got many in my family be there do you think i take delight in that do you think i suck sweetness from this no ifthere was a way to wiggle out of it with my education honey i would have wiggled out of it my problem it's in the book it's in the book and i can't deny it it's there in every conceivableway the doctrine of everlasting conscious torment in the bowels a petition is there in the book and i've read the jehovah's witnesses i've read the unitarians i read the seven-day event i've read them all universalists reincarnationists occultists cultists
i cannot be honest and tell you the bible does not warn you that if you are outside of jesus christ tonight you are one breath one heartbeat for more pain and suffering than you've ever experienced in this lifeso powerful are the metaphors and imagery used
The speaker answers objections that a good God would never punish people by pointing to suffering throughout biblical history. He surveys Eden, the flood, Sodom, Egypt, and later national judgments to argue that divine punishment is already a reality in the world.
that word simply to escape the horror of hell second load of rubbish a good god would never make people suffer in hell how many of you have heard that bunch of trash well how do you answer that welldown through the years i have simply this answer seeing that the good god exists now and he makes people suffer in this life horribly and has done so throughout human history if evil punishment pain and suffering exist hereand now on what basis do you say doesn't exist later and as i sat down and i thought about how that god has been punishing people he's been sticking it to them a long time how many remember adamand eve oh they were in paradise
everything was easy you hungry just reach up pull that fruit right off man they had it good no marital problems she had never had a headache he didn't need viagra running through the bushes they were happy
and god gave them a rule don't eat of that tree that was a law you can eat anything you want go ahead accept that tree
and adam and eve broke the law and the day that you eat you're going to begin to die because there are painful consequences to being a criminal at the moment adam and eve ate that fruit that became criminalslaw breakers they'd committed a crime and then they began to safa diya god said to the woman you know the uh you're gonna have babies i know all about it yeah you're gonna have lots of pain dear reallyyou wait and see and the pain isn't just the labor pain it's not just the fact that you'll have a watermelon go between your legs but this breath that you're going to produce they're going to cause lots ofpain how many of you think that cain gave a lot of pain to his motheradam you look so nice don't you remember how easy it was in the garden just go pick some fruit now you're outside and by the sweat of your brow you're gonna farm and instead of fruit up gonna pop
thorns and let me tell you you're gonna come in from a hard day you're gonna have pain and suffering and you're going to grow old and die and there's a man by the name of arthritis who's going tocome and visit you and he's going to tap all your joints and you're going to eve oh is there any chiropractors yet invented we need one now i've been bent over
where did the pain and the suffering come from the punishment of god on criminals what about the flood anybody have pain and suffering you know eight human beings inside the ark what about the rest of the people wellthey had these flotation devices how many of you think the human race was screaming how many of you think that drowning and watching your children drown is horrifying intense suffering and pain i know if i were a parenti'd be outside that ark and my fingernails would have broken off as i clogged the side of that ark and i'd be lifting up my daughter please for god sake take herand when you see everyone you love drown how about there's a good god yeah and he drowned them all what about sodom and gomorrah and the cities of the plain how many of you think that fireballs hitting a
city how many of you think burning alive is a pleasant experience how many of you think this divine judgment that came upon these cities was horrifying burning to death drowning to death can you think of more horrible deathswhat about the plagues of egypt were they the judgments of god i can't take these leaves oh i can't take another frog oh the swords the soresyou mean god punished pharaoh with the death of his firstborn and he caught yeah god sent the plagues what about the conquest of cana what about the assyrian captivity the babylonian captivity what about all the pain and sufferingand punishment and divine judgmentupon an evil humanity since the beginning of time don't tell me well god's a good god and he wouldn't hurt anyone in hell baby he's hurting us now
how many of you have known the blast of god's anger how many of you have had to suffer turn with me to the great evangelical prophet of the old testament isaiah listen to his eloquent testimony
chapter 13
for the context verse 6.well for the day of the lord is near it will come as destruction from the almighty therefore all hands will fall limp and every man's heart will melt they will be terrified pains and anguish will take hold ofthem and they will rise like a woman in labor they will look at one another in astonishment their faces are flame behold the day of yahweh is coming cruel with fury and burning anger to make the land adesolation and he will exterminate its sinners from it for the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light the sun will be dark when it rises and the moon will not shed its light thusi will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their iniquity when god says i will punish the world for all of its evil
that means anyone who says well how can a good god punish anyone in the afterlife nem knew he's doing it now he's always done it because we're criminals we violated the very first law he just said look onetree one tree that's mine have the rest they gotta get it
man violated the very first law of god and he has never stopped since and the judgment of god the anger of god the punishment of god as it has marched through the centuries the rise and the fall ofnations and empires the sacking of cities the rape of the virgins the enslavement of the populations the holocaust the exterminations you must understand this is the drumbeat that tells us judgment day is coming judgment day is coming godis judging sin now and in the day of his wrath he will come and there will be the final judgment which will be the climax of the entire process
Turning to Isaiah, the speaker shows that the Old Testament also teaches coming judgment and divine punishment. He responds to objections about hell by appealing to God's higher wisdom, human justice systems, and the reality that all people are sinners.
that's why in chapter 26 of isaiah in verse 21.
and i picked isaiah because he's known as the fiery prophet but the evangelical prophet as he tries desperately to get people to repent
chapter 26 of isaiahverse 20 come my people enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you hide for a little while until indignation runs its course for behold yahveh is about to come out of his place to punish the inhabitantsof the earth for their iniquity and the earth will reveal her bloodshed and will no longer cover her slain
isaiah warned them god is coming and if you're not on his side it's not going to be pleasant for you at all
third pile of rubbish well if i were god i wouldn't throw people into hell how many of you have heard that if i were god i wouldn't do that i even have christians to well if i were godi wouldn't deny me love you're already married
first thing you say to the person is well you better wake up you're not god isaiah 55 6-9 you're still in isaiah i chose it so you're in the book you say why are you in the old testamentbecause one of the objection of the liberal theologians is that hell is a new testament doctrine and the concept of divine punishment and retribution is only a new testament idea how many have we been in the old testamentpeople and does god not say i will punish the earth and its inhabitants don't tell me well that's a new testament idea isaiah 55 and verse 6 seek yahweh while he may be found call upon him while heis near let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts and let him return to the lord and he will have compassion on him and to our god for he will abundantly pardon for my thoughts
are not your thoughts nor are your ways my ways declares yahweh for as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts then your thoughts i really don't care whatyour thoughts are well if i'm with god so that's your idea your thought on the subjectthankfully your thoughts are of no consequence they're not even as much weight as dust on a a butcher scale says isaiah no you're not god so get with the program number two don't we punish criminals today by puttingthem into prison and if the crimes are violent enough putting them to death evidently we have no emotional difficulty in putting people away for the rest of their natural life in a torturous situation where they can be gang-bangedin the shower in which you give them soap on the rope so they don't have to bend over to pick up the salt now think do we not have jails do we not have prisons do we not have
the death penalty are there not murderers and rapists and thieves and terrorists and child molesters like that guy who murdered that innocent little girl see when someone says well if i were god i wouldn't have hell but everyonewould be happyso we should open the prisons and let them all out oh oh uh so you don't believe in having laws and having punishment when the laws are violated you don't believe in courts and judges and people condemned andput into prison you see the fact that god puts criminals into an eternal prison because they are eternal criminals who keep on criminalizing keep on sending and blaspheming and violating god's law they never stop the punishment never stopsbecause they never stop if we as human beings feel that we are just and righteous and perfectly in accord with morality to shut people away for the rest of their life in prison or to put them to death
by hanging them shooting them putting poison in their veins or gassing them or frying them on an electric chair how dare you say that god cannot do what we dothe last piece of rubbish tonight is the caval of the unitarian why would a good god put good people into hell
the problem of course is there are no good people they're only criminals not all criminals are the same god's justice you see is regulated the greater the crimes the greater your punishment the hotter the hell it will befor you there are degrees of punishment everyone in hell will be perfectly miserable but not equally miserable no no no you must not understand and why do you picture innocent people we're talking criminals for all have sinned andhe who says he without is without sin is a liar
The closing section summarizes the logical case for eternal punishment and points to Matthew 25 as Jesus' final teaching on the subject. The speaker ends by contrasting eternal punishment with eternal life and urging listeners to turn to Christ.
oh my dear friend in closing we can't even get any further tonight you must understand that the cavals and objections to the doctrine of everlasting punishment cannot stand the test of logic if there is evil in this worldon what grounds do we deny that there is evil in the next and if we agree with the justice of punishing crime in this life then on what grounds do we deny the justice of punishing crime in thenext life no the protests the ad hominem arguments the impugning of motives wishful thinking that we are good people the idea that god is a fiend who enjoys roasting people on spits like hobos roasting rabbits over at therail yard these are not legitimate or weighty arguments against the divine pronouncement and in closing i turn you over to matthew 25 verse 46 simply to whet your appetite for we're going to the words of the lord jesus
christ and i will have a lot to do with jesus because even the liberals jesus jesus is meek and mild sweet jesus all the while oh he's sweet jesus
jesus talked about hell 13 times to every one time he talked about heaven 13 to 1.matthew 25 and verse 46 he gives the final conclusion of human history those on the left the goats will go away into punishment the eternal onethe eternal punishment and then on the right those who have come by faith throughout the generations to god for gracebut the righteous will go away into eternal life you see that's the choice you can either experience the fullness of punishment for eternity or the fullness of life for eternity that's the only two options i see none otheri see no way to wiggle out of it the fact of divine judgment is not debatable the nature place and extent of it and duration of it is what is debated today but i submit to you that inmy book death and the afterlife i think they have a carton of that over the table hopefully i have demonstrated that there awaits after the judgment of christ the resurrection of the body the return of the lord when
this human history has been brought to a close when the eternal state begins there is a vast penal colony a prison called gehenna i called it the helton gehennawhere every criminal angel and every criminal human being in the universe will be gathered into that penal colony there will be no escapesand there they will suffer the wrath and the indignation of an infinitely holy god and they will scream and blaspheme and curse and because they keep right on sinning forever and ever and ever god keeps punishing forever andever and ever this is the teaching of the savior and of the apostles why will you die turn back turn back
there is everlasting life come without money without price it is the gift of god through jesus christ