Transcript
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The interview opens with a heated exchange about Gaza, accusations of war crimes, and the moral framing of Israel's response. The tone is confrontational from the start, setting up the central debate.
I remember when I was in Gaza and I would watch some of, you know, your debates and and you know, you were saying that you were having a moral quandary over what was going on.It's not a moral quandary for me.I'm putting headless children and I'm handing them over to mothers and they're hugging them and they're putting them into body bags.Smotrich and Ben-Gvir in particular have made it clear they want to clear out Gaza of all the Palestinians, which is a war crime.Is that ethnic cleansing?In support of Jewish settlements in Gaza, you said there should be another Nakba.Uh you also said, "I'm personally proud of the ruins of Gaza."You said, "I don't care about Gaza.I literally don't care at all."You say that Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, they're the they're the right-wingers.Isn't that pretty right-wing yourself?I mean as well.
I'm a right-winger as well.Absolutely.It was almost like a a comedy sketch if it wasn't so serious.There you are saying, "Don't believe any of the stories of of Israelis shooting at people here."And next to you is a machine gun going off.Come on, Colonel Kemp.Take your blinkers off, man.All I can say is thank God that there was no Piers Morgan on censor during World War II.
Piers introduces the Gaza crisis and then speaks with Dr. Muhammad Mustafa about his background, his sports career, and his firsthand experience treating the wounded in Gaza. The discussion turns to his family's refugee history and the scale of suffering he has witnessed.
President Trump wants a ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas war and he wants it to be as soon as this week.Well, frankly, it can't come soon enough.Thousands of Palestinians have been killed since the last ceasefire broke down, including a series of shocking incidents at aid centers.More than 50 hostages remain in Hamas captivity.At least 20 of them believe to be still alive.This weekend, Israeli settlers attacked an Israeli military base in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.The opposition says they're emboldened by expansionist hardliners in Netanyahu's government.Well, coming up, I'll talk to one of the most controversial ministers in Israel's government and we'll debate the terms of what happens next.But first, I'm joined by British Dr.Muhammad Mustafa, known to many of his followers as the beast from the Middle East, who has first-hand experience in Gaza.Welcome to you.Thank you.Thank you for You were grimacing when I read your nickname there, the beast in the Middle East.
But that is your like unofficial title, right?Yeah, yeah, yeah.I've been I've been called a few names in my time, but that's one that seems to have stuck around.What why that?What what's that about?Well, I used to I used to play like a lot of sports.I used to play professional rugby and and uh and a couple of the lads came up with that name and it's just kind of stuck ever since and then um you know, it was my Instagram handle for sucha long time and then I started to go viral and I thought it was too late to change it then.So, uh yeah, I guess I'm the beast from the Middle East.We're going to get to incredible stuff you've done in Gaza, but you were telling me off camera, it's fascinating.You Tom Aspinall, the UFC guy, is a great mate of yours and you've done lots of uh training with him.
You've actually sparred with Tyson Fury, too.Well, in Thailand it and I accidentally caught him and uh yeah, that was really scary cuz when I caught him, he was he was such a sport about it though that I accidentally hit him in the face, sofair play to him.But yeah, I've I've I've done a lot of training around the world um with MMA and jiu-jitsu and obviously I've played professional rugby as well, so I've I've done quite a bit of sports.Uh the relevance, I guess, is it's it's made you a tough guy.Yeah.And uh capable of, you know, dealing with a lot of stuff.Had anything prepared you for what you encountered in Gaza?Do you know, Gaza is an extremely difficult place to go into.I've been there now multiple times since I started this war.I remember, you know, the first time going in there, you know, we arrived at about 6:00 and there was an airstrike at a residential house and we walked in to the morgue.
And I remember opening up the body bags because the other extended family were there to identify the bodies.And you know, when you just open a body bags and it's organs of children, missing heads, missing limbs, 80% body burns.And you know, there were family members coming in, picking up pieces of an arm and identifying the body just by the ring.And you know, that was literally the first 30 minutes I was in Gaza and instantly you know that this is something that's you'll never be prepared for something like that.Had you ever come across anything like this?Not not to this scale.Not to this scale.The level of destruction, you know, we would drive you know, we would drive from the European Hospital to Nasser Hospital and and there would be about four buildings standing.And it was just rubble and people were living in and amongst this rubble.
Um you know, it was really and you know, the drones are constantly overhead.Um every day children are coming in, injured, killed, burnt alive.And that's constant and you and you know, there's always the risk that you could be killed as well.I mean, it sounds extraordinary.Mhm.When you say that children are coming in every day, literally all the time.Yeah.You know, the second time that I was there, I was there a few days into the a few days before the ceasefire broke.And we would actually see children come in with gunshot wounds to the neck and head.They'd been sniped neck and head.Um we saw last year in June children that had been starved to death, children that coming in starving to death in June last year.So, forget about, you know, this Gaza Humanitarian Foundation now and the starvation that you see.
We were seeing that in June last year.And you know, to to go back 9 months later and still see children starving to death, that's what really hits home is is when you see that how prolonged and sustained this campaign of violence and you know, violenceagainst children.Um it's been uh yeah, it's it's quite difficult.You are the son of a Gazan refugee.Yeah.Your dad was a refugee.Yeah.He's now he's here in the UK.He's become one of the top fertility doctors in the country.Yes.Yeah.Which is an amazing story.Yeah.Uh for any refugee, but particularly one from Gaza.Yeah.Um what were your memories growing up with your dad?Did he talk to you much about the conflict and the problems?You know, my my dad's my dad's one of my heroes.You know, he when he was born in Gaza, he used to wear the US aid flower bags as his trousers.
Didn't own a pair of shoes till he was about 13 years old.Um you know, he lived in absolute poverty, but he built himself up.He became a doctor and it was through that profession of health care and watching him every day go to work, working late to not just support our family, but to support family back home in Gaza.Um and I really looked up to him and you know, I was reflecting on this a lot the other day.You know, my father has been responsible for around 20,000 children being born in this country that wouldn't have been born because of, you know, his his level high skill level in fertility medicine.And I just think to myself like there's been over 20,000 children that have been killed in Gaza.How must he take that?He's brought life so much life to this country and yet he's watching his own country be absolutely destroyed.
What does he feel about that?You know, my father's health has declined a lot in the last 2 years.I really worry about him.Um he you know, me myself and I don't talk about this very often, but you know, we've had dozens of family members killed during this this conflict.Dozens?Dozens of family killed during this conflict.We've also had, you know, dozens of family members killed generationally.You know, I've had family members killed in 2014.I've had family members killed 20 years ago.I've had family members killed 30 years ago.I've had family members that were killed in hospitals when hospitals were bombed in the 50s and the 60s in Gaza.So, you know, this whole thing and you know, I don't want to put you on the spot, but you know, I remember when I was in Gaza and I would watch some of, you know, your debates and and
you know, you were saying that you were having a moral quandary over what was going on.And I remember just thinking to myself like it's not a moral quandary for me and it's not a moral quandary for millions of people around the world.Like we're sat here and I'm putting headless children and I'm handing them over to mothers and they're hugging them and they're putting them into body bags.When we have a mass casualty event, I'm stepping over children as they're bleeding out to death on the floor because I know we don't have the medical equipment to treat them.When I'm trying to use an ultrasound machine to do a scan on someone, the cords have been cut because Israeli soldiers have cut the cords of ultrasound machines.I've had family members who have who have died because the dialysis machines are filled with with bullet holes.
So, you know, just to put it in a context, the first 24 days of this conflict, 1,900 children were killed in the first 24 days.That's more than any other conflict anywhere around the world in a whole year and in this tiny population of Gaza.And I think anybody like me or any Palestinians or anyone really that knows the situation, they knew what was coming and they knew what was happening when they were calling, you know, them human animals and Amalek and we'regoing to cut off food, water and electricity and 1,900 children killed in in a in a dozen or so days.I think we all knew what was coming.When you say you knew what was coming, I I just to be clear, my moral quandary was really that I felt after October the 7th, Israel didn't just have a right to defend itself, but a duty.
Yeah.A terror attack of that scale, Mhm.you know, 1,200 people killed, Yeah.nearly 7,000 more wounded, Yeah.250 plus kidnapped, grandmothers, babies, I mean, Holocaust survivors.It was on such a horrific scale.Obviously, Israel was going to respond with force.Yeah.Uh my my quandary was simply at what point is this a proportionate response?And I didn't know the answer.Yeah.I do now and I've been saying for a few months now that what is happening now is beyond Yeah.to me any kind of proportionate response.Yeah.And it seems to be never-ending.And that's why this has to end.But take going back to October the 7th, not withstanding obviously you're the son of a Gazan refugee refugee and of course that will inform how you Yeah.view things, but none of this would be happening in the way it's been happening without what Hamas did that day.
Yeah.
The conversation shifts to Hamas's October 7 attack, Palestinian suffering, and the deeper causes of the conflict. Mustafa argues that occupation and inequality are the root problems and outlines his efforts to build medical aid solutions for Gaza.
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So, look, I I think the framing of that is a little bit problematic.Like, what Hamas did to its own people What What's been going on is didn't start on October the 7th.It's been 75 years, and I can attest to that because I was ethnically cleansed out of Gaza, and so was my family, you know?So, it didn't start on October the 7th.What do I think about October 7th?Horrific.Mhm.You know, uh taking of women and children as hostages, killing innocent people.Mhm.As a Palestinian, I know how much that hurts.Mhm.So, all I have is nothing but sympathy for the people who suffered on October the 7th.But, at the same time, you know, people started this story on October the 7th.And for me, growing up in poverty, growing up without running water in the house, growing up watching, you know, us have to give up our savings all the time to support family back in Gaza and back at the
For me, it never started on October the 7th.For me, it started every day when I was being bullied at school.It started when, um I had to move from city to city cuz my dad never got a permanent job.You know, those are the kind of things where, you know, I look at it and I was just There was a lot of emotions on October the 7th, you know, as a Palestinian.Did any part of you feel it was justified?I've heard some people categorize what they did as resistance.Yeah.Which is a justification for what happened.I don't think you can do that.I mean, to me, it was an appalling terrorist attack.And the reason I framed the question the way I did was that when it later turned out that Hamas had this huge tunnel system Yeah.where they all hid.
Yeah.But, the civilians Yeah.were left Mhm.to be under the raining bombs from Israel, Mhm.which were inevitably going to come Yeah.given the scale of what Hamas did.Yeah.That's what I meant by the way I phrased the question, which is how much do Palestinian people, when they look back on that, how much do they blame Hamas for the for for inevitably bringing this on them?Yeah.I mean, look, before Hamas, it was the PLO.Right.You know?And before the PLO, it was the Egyptians.And before then, it was somebody else.Look, at the end of the day, the root cause is the problem.The root cause is the occupation.The root cause is inequality.Mhm.The root cause is that I don't have the right to return to my home.That my father doesn't have the right to return.That my grandfather is buried in Gaza.
My dad's never been able to go see him.Mhm.You know?When we talk about the root cause, when we talk about, you know, what Hamas did on October the 7th, this is just a cycle.And the cycle always comes back to instead of looking at the symptoms, I don't want to look at the symptoms.I want to look at the causes.The cause is inequality, is a lack of justice.And I just want justice for the Palestinian people.And I don't want that justice to be violence and killing of innocent Israelis.You want the same human rights.I just want the same human rights.Yeah.Do you think it's possible?I mean, you know, I I liken it sometimes to what happened in Northern Ireland, where for decades people thought this could never get resolved.Yeah.People living amongst each other, Yeah.you know, loyalists and IRA.
Um but, eventually they got there.Yeah.They got to peace.Do you think it's possible to end up with a two-state solution where Palestinians live with the same rights as Israelis?Well, look, I think the Israelis are making it very difficult to have a two-state solution.You know, with the expansion of settlements in the West Bank and moving in Which is appalling.Which is moving in millions of settlers.It's making a two-state solution impossible.Really, what's going to happen is eventually there'll be a one-state solution with equality for Muslims and Jews and anybody else living on that land.And eventually, Palestinians will have the right to return.And they will return back to Palestine.And I feel like, you know, it's kind of ironic, really, because they've avoided so much in giving the Palestinians a state and a home.And they've tried to destroy this two-state solution.
And eventually, what will happen is a one-state solution.And eventually, the majority that they've tried to build by ethnically cleansing, by taking up more and more land, will go away because eventually, the Palestinians will return home.And eventually, given all the Palestinian refugees all around the world, eventually, the Palestinians will outnumber the, uh you know, the Jewish population.And that's I think what's worrying them.And I think what needs to happen is is there either needs to be a conversation where you need to have a proper two-state solution, or it needs to be a one-state solution.But, questions need to be asked, and governments need to come in and help because we can't countries do enough?It seems to me they kind of hold back and say, "This is not our problem."Well, you know, look, Jordan has taken in millions of refugees.More than half the population of Palestinian.
Uh Lebanon has had civil wars with Palestinian resistance fighters in there before.Um you know, Syria has its own problems.Egypt has, you know, my dad was educated in Egypt.Egypt has taken in loads of Palestinian refugees before.The The problem isn't the Arabs.They are It is problematic, you know, the the lack of help and the lack of support.But, the the the problem is is here is that we have a expansionist regime which is extremely right-wing with in Israel that doesn't protect uh that doesn't uh respect any borders, doesn't respect anyone's sovereignty.And is now talking in openly genocidal language.I mean, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir in particular have made it clear they want to clear out Gaza of all the Palestinians.Yeah.Yeah, exactly.Exactly.a discu- which is a war crime.It's ethnic cleansing.It is.It is.It is.And you know, that's why And you know, the UN has been gutted as well.
It's been defunded.It's been gutted.It's been delegitimized.And what I've been doing since I got back from Gaza is I've been trying to come up with solutions for what's going on.And, you know, I've been traveling around the world trying to get support for a children's hospital in Gaza.It's a children's hospital that we're going to build in Jordan.Mhm.So, the infrastructure will is there in place already ready.We're going to build it in Jordan and drive it into Gaza and have a mobile hospital.Essentially, it's a hospital on wheels.It has an intensive care unit, wards, pathology labs, pharmacies.It's solar panel powered.It has running sewerage, water works.And And, you know, I've got the proposal here.It's ready to go.And I'm in the final stages of negotiations with them in the roof foundation to get funding for this hospital.
Mustafa explains his proposal for a mobile children's hospital and a broader food aid plan for Gaza. He describes lobbying governments for support and argues that international actors should take a more active role.
We have a similar concept of this a maternity and neonatal hospital, which is ready to go into Gaza as well.The reason why I'm saying that, why I've come with solutions and not just here just to talk Mhm.and just rhetoric and, you know, people being unhappy and victim and this this and this.I want a solution to this.Mhm.Women and children are dying.Women and children are being funneled into cages and gunned down, hungry women and children.You can't have an army that's on trial for genocide to be also the one that controls access to believe the IDF are deliberately killing civilians?Cuz they always say, "We're deliberately killing Hamas, and civilians are dying in the process of us going after Hamas."What do you say to that?Well, I'd say that they you know, they killed their own hostages when they were when they were waving white flags.
They have bombed hospitals with people inside them.They left babies in incubators to rot to death.When they executed those 15 paramedics, I was in Gaza then.When they executed 15 paramedics and buried them alive.And lied about it.And lied about it.I was there when I would have children coming in with explosive injuries, and they would have bread in their hand.They were eating, and they targeted them when they were eating.I would pick up children as young as 2 years old that had been shot in the head by snipers multiple times.So, you know, when they talk about saying that they're they're only going after Hamas, I mean, you said it yourself.They've openly talked about ethnically cleansing the whole of Gaza.They're actively expanding settlements in the West Bank.They say Hamas are in all the hospitals.Is that true?Look, I've worked in all the hospitals.
It'd be a very stupid thing to to have a military base in a hospital.One, it's open access policy.Everyone can walk in and out of the hospital.Also, the hospital is full of injured women and children.The hospital is full of media.And also, the hospital is a base where all the international aid workers are.And, you know, my concern when I go to Gaza is the children in Gaza.That's my concern.I don't want to be I don't want, you know, there be any military operations out of there cuz it puts children in danger.But, you know, I've not heard of a doctor that's come out and said that they've actively seen fighting or rockets being fired out of a hospital.It's not to say that something might have happened before.But, again, you still can't throw the baby away with the dirty baby water.
It's a hospital.And if you're going to bomb destroy hospitals, which they've bombed 36 hospitals, then let me bring in my hospital.Let me bring in this.And what I'm trying to do with this hospital is I'm trying to make this a government-led initiative.I want the British government on board.I've I've got the Irish government on board.You know, we met with President Michael Higgins.We've We've got the Australian government talking about this.We went to France yesterday to try and get the French government on board.Instead of having the Israelis running the aid, I want our governments to take a more active role.I don't want them to pay for this.I want them just to give us the access to get this hospital in and to allow British doctors, Australian doctors, Irish doctors, Canadian doctors in to have our hospital.This is our aid distribution center.
You know, just last week or a couple of weeks ago, the first children of Gaza arrived here in the UK.Two of them arrived.That's the first time since this war started that two children have arrived.Yep.And, you know, they're not bringing any more in.And I understand why the government don't want to bring more children in.One, you know, you saw the race riots that happened in August um in my town in Middlesbrough.People were pulled out of their cars if they were Muslim.Mosques were vandalized.Asylum seekers' hotels were burned down.I know for the government, it's a touchy subject to bring in black and brown children into the UK.Well, this is a way we avoid that.Instead of bringing them here to be treated, let's bring a hospital here.And, you know, it's not just the hospital that I've got.
I've also got a plan here to feed the children of Gaza with instant aid.This This a comprehensive two-year plan that not just looks after feeds the children.It It feeds them twice a day nutrient-rich meals.This has been designed by executives out of work for the World Food Program and USA Aid.This is a pious project's hospital as well.Like I've got the answers here and I've been speaking to government figures.I just need them to listen to me.I'm about to interview um one of the Israeli government.What would be your message for Tax Day has passed, but for millions of Americans, that's where the trouble begins.The IRS is now ramping up enforcement for those who missed the April deadline or still owe back taxes.Well, today's sponsor, Tax Network USA, can still help.If your books are a mess, you're self-employed, or if you're a business owner, Tax Network USA specializes in cleaning up financial chaos and getting you back on track quickly.
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The discussion turns to public protest, including the Glastonbury chants and the Greta Thunberg flotilla. Mustafa defends activism as a way to draw attention to Gaza and says his own role is to push practical solutions.
That's tnusa.com/piers.
Let Tax Network USA make the next move, not the IRS.I mean, she's the equality minister, isn't she?Um look Why are you laughing when you say that?Because it's kind of like a Black Mirror episode, you know?Sometimes it's parody, you know?It's It's a parody.I think like everyone was watching what you know, in Glastonbury just then what's happening in Glastonbury, you know, the chance right death death to the IDF, right?What did you think of that?Well, you know, what I thought of that is just like, you know, they are more concerned and more outraged by a chant than the actual crimes of the IDF.be outraged by both?Uh Cuz I was.Look, you can be outraged by both.Watching thousands of people at music festival yeah Yeah.chanting death to the IDF.Yeah.I found that very unsettling and I'm not Jewish.
Yeah.If I was a a British Jew watching that, I would feel very very unnerved that a British audience like that and the irony that of course Hamas had obliterated young people at a music festival Yeah.on October the 7th.I didn't like that and I think it's perfectly possible to think that is outrageous, but it's also perfectly possible to criticize Israeli government for what they're doing in Gaza.I mean, look, you're asking the wrong person about about that because I've had family members killed for generations by the IDF.I've had my home destroyed, my village burned down by the IDF.I've held children who were riddled in bullets by the IDF.I've had to have children in a corner with their while their mother bled out to them on the floor and covered their own children in her blood as she died because of IDF bullets and IDF bombs.
So, you know, when you ask these questions like why are you asking a Palestinian who's been attacked by the IDF why because for example, when the Iraq war happened, my brother was a serving officer for example.My issue was not with him.My issue I campaigned against him as the as the Daily Mirror.My My issue was with Tony Blair and the Labour government that ordered him and his colleagues into battle.So, I think blaming soldiers in war Yeah.is it's chicken and the egg.They're being ordered into battle to do what they do by their governments.Look, I hear you.I hear you.I hear your concerns and look I But I hear you, too.Yeah.Cuz if I'd lost a lot of family members to IDF bullets and and bombs, I would probably feel the same way you do.What I What I say is this, look right here.
I I I don't agree with any form of violence and death chants.I I'm a doctor.I try and bring life to this world, right?I sustain life.I don't want anyone to die.But when you're an IDF soldier who is wearing putting on dead women's lingerie in Palestine, tying children's teddy bears onto tanks, when you're leaving babies to rot in incubators, when you are laughing as you're blowing up schools andhospitals there is going to be backlash.And what happens at these music festivals is they're reflective of how society feels.Whether that's right or wrong, I'm not here to comment on that, but I'm just saying that like if the government was more proactive, people wouldn't feel this rage.And I don't want people to feel rage.I don't want death, right?Because I've had a lot of death in my family.I've had a lot of a lot of issues in my life because of of of this issue.
I want there to be peace.I want both sides to come together.I don't want to see Jewish people suffering and dying, but I don't want to see Palestinians suffering and dying.And all I want is I want to bring in my hospital and I want to feed the children.And I've, you know, I've got the solutions here.I've got them here.I've got plans.are watching this and listening to you.I just need someone to listen and Will you be going back to Gaza while the war's still on?I I've um my forms are submitted.I should be going back into Gaza whether I'm allowed back in or not considering all the noise that I've made about the Well, you were on the Greta Thunberg flotilla, which I was very critical of her cuz I'mnot a big fan of her as I thought it was all a bit of a virtue signaling load of twaddle if I'm honest.
But I didn't know you obviously.I I found you a very impressive person to interview.But did that really achieve anything or was it not just another of Greta's stunts which really is about her, but doesn't really achieve anything?So, look, what I'll tell you to that right here is, you know, I was invited to come down to you know, see the guys at the flotilla and and and and have my voice there as a doctor thathad been to Gaza.Like you, you know, I'd watched Greta over the years.I wasn't sure either, you know?But when I was there and I saw them get onto the boat Greta was crying.She Her mother was there Her family was there.There was real concern that she could be killed here and there was concern by the other flotilla members, you know?It was a very somber moment when they left because family members were hugging, there was tears, and there was cuz I was there before they got onto the boat and there was all the precautionary stuff of people writing
their last letters, their last messages.I mean, this is real.You know, the flotilla before then three week three weeks ago had been bombed by drones.Uh 15 years ago, 10 people on the flotilla were killed.Right?You're talking about sailing in in a ship an unarmed ship carrying baby formula to a to go into the heart of a genocide with an army that doesn't respect international law.I mean, to be fair to Greta right here, as much criticism as you can have, she's really brave for what she did.And I know people might have this and that, but it's real.They really wanted to break the siege and they've made the whole world talk about this illegal siege because the siege has been going on for 18 years in Gaza and that has been locked by sea I I justdon't think anybody knew was thinking about it who wasn't already was my point.
Yeah.Um And I and I can respect that.And I also just think look people have different ways of expressing their views.My way of expressing it is to try and get something done.Other people is to perform protest like that that gain media attention.Whatever it is, I just want the killing to stop.Yeah.And I think everybody has a role to play.Even Greta has a role to play.And and and this is why I'm here.Even you do as well, Piers.I know when I was a kid cuz I used to watch, you know, you on TV and I know that you were the editor of the Daily Mirror at the time.You led the anti-war movement or one of the main figures that led the anti-war.You came under a lot of stick.You were attacked a lot.And I remember as a kid looking up at you and looking up to you and, you know, as a Muslim watching this white man you know, say that this is wrong and you were challenging a media narrative.
We didn't have social media back then.You didn't have the public support that you have now for the Palestine cause and you were under a lot of attack and your voice is so important because you were such a powerful voice in 2003 to stop thecrime of the Iraq war and that's why we need you on our side I I need no persuading about Gaza.I think this has gone on way too long.The death toll is way too high.The number of innocent people being killed on daily basis is completely unacceptable and I will be saying all this to the Israeli government minister in a moment.But Muhammad, I've got to leave you there.Thank you very much indeed.you.It's been a real pleasure to meet Yeah.Thank you for coming on.Thank you so much.It's great to I like the fact you've come with plans to try and help.
Thank you.I appreciate it, Piers.Thank you so much.see you.
May Golan joins and rejects accusations that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians, insisting the IDF is acting in self-defense. Piers challenges her on civilian deaths, ethnic cleansing language, and the scale of destruction in Gaza.
What I want to know is May Golan, the Minister for Social Equality in Benjamin Netanyahu's government.A welcome to you Miss Golan.You were listening to that, but you were grimacing and pulling faces.What was your issue with what you heard?Now, parts of First of all, thank you for having me, Mr.Morgan.Um I was hearing parts because I was talking with my staff here, but for some of the things I heard, some were just absolute lies.Uh the IDF is happy when he's bombing hospitals or schools, really?Uh a country and a nation who suffered the Holocaust and lost 6 million people is is happy about the hunger and is trying to use that as a method?And also I was trying really trying so hard to listen to one word of him saying about the captives that we have, about the hostages that we have, the 50 hostages that weren't released.
I didn't hear anything, not even a word.And um I can understand the suffering, of course I can.Trust me.Mr.Morgan, no one wants to see children died, children hurt.No one wants that, let alone the Israeli people who suffered what they did.But uh for them to say that we are doing it in order to hurt specifically innocent civilians is an absolute lie.I can tell you and I can tell you that it's a the Israeli I hear this from a lot of um Israeli government members, members, ambassadors, lawyers, and so on.And my point is always the same is that even if we accept that nobody in the IDF has ever deliberately targeted a child, which is contradicted by a lot of witnesses.But even if you accept that premise, you have to also agree that 20,000 children maybe many more, that's just the ones that we believe is the is the number have been killed as you've gone after Hamas and it's
it's a staggering number of children, innocent kids who've been killed here.And just on a human level, surely surely you must accept that this has now gone on long enough.First of all, on a human level, I can tell you not 100% 1 million percent that we take no pleasure whatsoever not in seeing anyone innocent in Gaza who died, let alone our holy and here are soldiers andour innocent people.But let's put some things in perspective and I would like to answer that, you know, as as much as I can that would satisfy you because hearing the interview before it seems like you're coming from one side andI can understand I'm not on anyone's side and as you as you probably as you listen as you probably know at the start of all this for many months, I was the one being attacked by the pro-Palestinian guests
on because they didn't like the fact that I was supporting Israel's right to defend itself and in fact said it had a moral duty to defend itself.So just because I'm now criticizing the Israeli government, let's not pretend that somehow I'm changing sides.I was never on anybody's side.I I try and be an objective journalist.when I heard that when I heard that recorded just now that that interview, you said to him specifically no one needs to persuade me about Gaza.So I think that when you see the okay, Mr.Morgan, let me answer.When you see videos and when you see pictures which I'm sure you get a mass of them, okay?You have to remember those videos and pictures don't come from the moon, right?They're coming from people who take videos there.Everyone has mobile phones, smartphones.So obviously some of those videos could be a reflected to one side.
I suggest I really do suggest you see some of the videos of the horrors that happened on October 7th.them.Of the horrors that happened happened in 1 second.1 second.them.You saw the 40-minute video?You saw the 40-minute video of the horrors?Yes.If you saw that if you did saw that and I I let me just tell you that it's just a part it's just a part of what we could have shown because the majority was horrible.If you saw that you can't stay uh calm in yourself and relax about what Israel and the and the Jewish nation have to endure for the last 75 years.We have women that are being slaughtered and raped in the the most brutal way.I'm as the minister for social equality and the advancement of women which I just heard your the person that you interviewed mocking about it and laughing No, what he was laughing about.
No, he was hang on.Hang on.Hang on.No, you mustn't mischaracterize
you mustn't mischaracterize it.What the point the point he was making and he's an extremely courageous doctor who risked his own life several times now to go and work in hospitals in Gaza as the bombs are dropping.So I won't have you attacking him as a person.you that Israel has suggested more than 100 incubators to the Shifa hospitals and to the authorities of Hamas and they refused it.I wish he would have told you that many hospitals Mr.Morgan 1 second.I wish he would have told you that many hospitals underground have facilities of terror.I wish he would have told you that schools and and and places of humanitarian aid which by the way we the the country that have massacred in her holiday has been given over 70,000 aid trucks.Do you hear that?Yes, you know WHAT I'M SAYING.LET ME RESPOND.
WOMAN
YES, IF
YES, OKAY.LET ME RESPOND.UH AS I SAID TO you Yes.uh for a long time in this war, I defended Israel's right to defend itself.But that right to self-defense has now been consumed by senior members of your government, your colleagues, Smotrich, Ben-Gvir and others, extreme right-wing members of that government who are now talking in a very brazen and very open way aboutwhat they really want to happen which is in their words cleansing Gaza of all Palestinians.That is ethnic cleansing.That is a war crime.So you may not say that or maybe you will, but your colleagues are saying that and they want to cleanse Gaza as they put it of all Palestinians.That is not self-defense.That is ethnic cleansing.So you can play the moral argument against me about October the 7th, but it's pointless.It's pointless.Well, let me explain.
Let me explain.I have said repeatedly but if I may finish my sentence I have for 20 There you go.I hear you on delay.Don't Can I finish my sentence?Okay.But don't get angry.I hear you on You're the one getting angry.I'm trying to get a word in.I'm not.But let me finish my sentence if I may.For 20 months as anyone who's watched my show will tell you and I would suspect you haven't watched it much or you wouldn't be questioning what I feel about October the 7th.To me it was one of the most heinous terror attacks of modern times, an absolutely despicable assault on predominantly innocent women, children, grandmothers, grandfathers in the most repulsive, horrific, atrocious manner.And I Hamas to me are a disgusting terrorist organization who lost any right to govern for another second in Gaza the moment they perpetrated that act of pure evil.
However, and it's an important however, what the Israeli government has been doing in the last few months in Gaza has now to even its closest allies become something they cannot defend and you know this.When you do a 3-month blockade of food, you boast you all boast about how much aid you're giving them.You blocked most aid and food for 3 months to an already starving, impoverished people who have been rained with arms for now the 20 months.That is actually not a right thing to do.It's not a lie.It's not a lie.The blockade is not a lie.And if you let me comment, you say so much accusations.You have to let me comment about some of them.So there was no blockade.Okay, wait.You said a lot of things.I want to comment about all of them.If you let me, I would be more than happy.
Okay.First of all, let's start about Smotrich and Ben-Gvir what you said.Now, Mr.Morgan, I don't need to explain to you who I have been watching his show and for day for many many and been watching your professional career for many years by the way.And and and do have evaluation for for everything that you say and for what you believe in which I think I really think you are being misled.That is why I came here on this show not because I think anything else.Now I would be really happy if you let me finish some of the points that I wanted to I want to tell you.First of all, regarding Smotrich and Ben-Gvir you have to know with all of your profession that there is two kinds of politicians.One like you interviewed for instance Naftali Bennett, an interview I did watch who by accident forgot to mention that he launched a party just a month ago and forgot to tell you that he signed so many declarations before
he came before he became a prime minister and didn't held up to any of them and forgot to tell you a lot of things.But in actual fact deceived his own people.And just like the rest of them that you interviewed Olmert and Barak and all those prime minister that the one thing in common that they all have is the fact that the public doesn't vote for them anymore sothey're very bitter.Now, regarding Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, you have to remember when you say in Smotrich and Ben-Gvir you're talking about and I don't know what they said, but I'm referring to what you said.I'm you know, trusting your words.You're talking obviously about the Trump's plan.Now this is not Smotrich or Ben-Gvir's plan.This is the most the Okay, so what so I don't know I don't know anything regarding to them wanting
They never they they want to to to kill They want to cleanse their words cleanse Gaza of all the Palestinians.So when you say cleanse, I can tell you that they refer to the Trump's plan.And when we're talking about Trump's plan, I have to tell you that first of all, Donald J.Trump which is what I consider the best thing that God could have given us for a new Middle Age, his collaboration with Prime Minister Netanyahu is really what we could all wish for in order to make a newMiddle East.But I can tell you that we are not taking anything off the table in order to to protect our civilians and our children of Israel.And if we have to look at Trump's plan which is for me as I think is thinking outside of the box.And if we have to to consider other things like we have examined over the decades, we will.
But I don't see it as ethnic cleansing let alone listen that's my opinion.They're not a part of Let me ask you.Would you like to cleanse Gaza of all the Palestinians?Listen, I I don't use the terminology of you and your colleagues.That is not my terminology.It's the terminology of your colleague.It's not my terminology just like the settlements that you mentioned No, no, it's the terminology to be clear.To be clear, it's the terminology of your own cabinet colleague.It's Smotrich, your finance minister.It's your colleague not mine or my colleagues.It's the language used by your finance minister only 2 weeks ago.
The argument intensifies over Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, the blockade, and whether Israel's actions amount to ethnic cleansing. Piers presses Golan on civilian casualties, media access, and the treatment of hostages, while she insists Hamas is the real culprit.
I can tell you that for the first thing first time ever we have a very right-wing government as you can see.Our views are very transparent and everything that is held in the in the in the cabinet and in the not in the cabinet but in the government is being shared outside.No one is hiding anything.Now, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir are not a part of my party, but they are a part of of the of this government.And I'm telling you although I'm not representing them that they are talking about the Trump's plan and we are considering it just like we consider any other plan in order to protect our civilians.Now, I want to say another thing about that.Listen.I don't know.I can I heard your interviews and I know you talk about Smotrich and his things that he said, but I want to say something about Bezalel Smotrich.
Although I have nothing to do with his party.Yes, he's a part of my government, not from my party.I don't know that, but Smotrich went to more funerals this year than you went in in your entire life, okay?He's he's entire family.How do you know that?entire and his Wait 1 second.Wait 1 second.You have no idea how many funerals I've been to.How do you know that?friends because I tell I tell you he went to hundreds and hundreds of funerals from his own community.His heart was broken.We are wounded.Our ministers are wounded from the sights we saw.I wanted to tell you before and you stopped me.As the Minister for Social Equality and the Advancement of Women, what I saw that WOMEN HAVE ENDURED, YOUR EYES and your mind could never comprehend.The fact is that we have children in Gaza today that the interview before was talking about that are being raised on Mein Kampf.
They are being raised of killing Jews from the second they are born.This is what they say.And you know what?If you don't believe me, you can talk with the with the hostages that came back from captivity.And what what are they telling do with them?What would you do with them?The Palestinians.With who?The Palestinians.What would you do with them?Well, first of all, this is not this is not an issue now with the Palestinians.This is not an issue with the terror regime of Hamas.In my idea But I'm asking you what you would do with the Palestinian population.What would you do with it?I don't know.Would you like to accept them?We will eliminate the terror of Hamas.Would England accept them?Well, let me Well, let me read you Let me Let me remind you of some of the things that you've said yourself.
All right?During an October 24 24 rally uh in support of Jewish settlements in Gaza, you said there should be another Nakba referring to the 1948 Palestinian displacement of hundreds of thousands of people.Uh you also said, "I'm personally proud of the ruins of Gaza and that every baby, even 80 years from now, will tell their grandchildren what the Jews did."That was in February.You said this.You want to explicit violence against Hamas and Palestinians in February 2024.Hamas, absolutely.Yeah.Absolutely.We want to eliminate every terrorist of Hamas.Let me tell you Hey, hang on.I'm finished.I haven't finished.Sorry, I haven't finished.I haven't finished yet.In December 2023, you said, "I don't care about Gaza.I literally don't care at all."Uh I mean and and I could go on reading you stuff you've said.So So my point is you say that Smotrich and Ben-Gvir they're the they're the right-wingers.
It's only pretty right-wing yourself, I mean.I'm a right-winger as well.I'm a right-winger as well.Absolutely.Would you say you're an extremist?That doesn't mean I take any pleasure any pleasure of an innocent Arab man or woman or child in Gaza suffering.But the fact is that you that you all for some reason refuse to acknowledge is that Hamas is using them as human shields all the time.I've never denied that.I've never denied that.I I KNOW WHAT HAMAS DO.I WANTED TO ASK YOU SOMETHING.You you care very much about the Gazans, right?I want to ask you something.You know when we had the the horrifying Holocaust Okay, thank you.I appreciate that.When we had the horrifying Holocaust, do you know that we had such a thing called the righteous among the nations?Those were Christian Christian people who risked their own lives in order to save Jews.
Now, I'm asking you, Mr.Morgan.I'm still waiting for one Gazan person, one out of 2 MILLION, TO COME OUT AND SAY, "THIS IS WHERE the hostages are.This is where they hide."OR ONE OR ONE OF THEM to come and say, "This is where the terrorism are.This is where they hide all of their weapons and their and their and their rockets and and all of the the the horrible tunnels where their abuse are hostages.Not even one.Now, even though even though I said that, I can tell you that right now the IDF, which I tell you you cannot agree, that's okay, but I tell you IDF is the most moral army in the world.I repeat, it's the most moral army in the world.We're not shooting.It's not 1 second.1 more sentence, Mr.Morgan, please.Okay.is not shooting a population.
Is not shooting an innocent population.But you tell me, what do we need to do when when Hamas terrorists are hiding behind human people?Are hiding behind schools and underground of hospitals?WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO?You know the first thing you could do?You could lift the ban that the Israeli government has put on international journalists going into Gaza so that all the claims that you make, which always blame Hamas for absolutely everything, could be verified by independent journalists.Why don't you do that?Why for 20 months have you banned international media from going into Gaza?An unprecedented ban for any modern warfare.Why Why have you done this?Mhm.Mhm.Well, I want to tell you that first of all uh you have to understand something.The the IDF army is not trained to shoot in bursts.They are trained to shoot through sights in a single shot mode.
That means they are not shooting like in the movies, like you think spraying all over the place.with the media being banned?We can I will tell you.I will tell you right now.So if you'll just let me finish.So you would agree with me that if the IDF would have shot in bursts, Gaza would have been a parking lot within 12 hours.And and and that would have been much more dangerous to the Not is No, it's not.He's destroyed 70% of Gaza already.And you're carrying on destroying the rest.Gaza is a parking lot.With all due respect, you have reduced two-thirds of Gaza to a parking lot.Why are you Why are you pretending otherwise?Mr.Morgan.No, I'm not pretending.I don't need to pretend.I'm saying the reality like it is.You think that's funny?Of course, it's funny.
It's funny when you think that I'm pretending.I'm sitting here in front of you.I don't have to, right?I can live my life and don't and don't conduct with you, but I am sitting here because I know I'm telling the truth.I have no reason to lie.Now, regarding to the journalists, the IDF has declared the the Gaza Strip as a very dangerous combat zone.And and there is a risk not just for for the journalists to be harmed by the terrorist or by the IDF trying to eliminate the terrorists that are hiding behind civilians, but also there is a risk for journaliststo be kidnapped.But I have to ask, Mr.Morgan, you are so worried about journalists that will eventually go into Gaza.Don't worry about that.But what about worrying a little bit that maybe that that the Red Cross would go in to visit our hostages that are drinking sewage water, that are sitting in cages of 1 m, that are being abused, clear, again,
beaten up, that haven't been eaten, THAT NO ONE KNOWS WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THEM.NOT LIKE THE RED CROSS THAT IS COMING INTO OUR PRISON AND VISITING MURDERERS OKAY.murderers that are visiting them them.If I may respond, I agree the hostages should be released.It is disgusting they were taken in the first place.It remains disgusting.It is horrific that Hamas holds the families of these hostages through this unbelievably unbearable 20 months of hell.I hope that clarifies my position on the hostages.But you talk about the IDF being the most moral army in the world.On Friday, the Israeli publication Haaretz published a story claiming the IDF are deliberately firing at Palestinians at aid distribution centers.Soldiers from the IDF told the publication that commanders ordered troops to shoot at crowds to drive them away or disperse them even though it was clear they posed no threat.
More than 400, maybe 500 people have been killed apparently in this manner.Benjamin Netanyahu, of course, immediately said all of this was malicious falsehood designed to defame the military.And the Israeli military has launched an investigation into possible war crimes following the report.Um but you see, this is the problem and this is why the the fact there's no media there is so important.It's not down to the IDF to decide whether journalists are at risk.It's down to the journalists and their organizations.And if the journalists were there, they could verify exactly who is shooting who in the food lines because you just say, as you always do, everything is being done, every bad act in Gaza is being done by Hamas.And everybody else says, "No, actually, the IDF are doing a lot of bad things, too."But the only way to really get to the bottom of this is let the journalists PRETTY MUCH EVERYBODY ELSE.
PRETTY MUCH EVERYBODY.Everybody else.The only journalists allowed to operate, of whom you've killed nearly 200 of the Palestinian journalists, they, of course, are the only journalists that can actually get any reports out cuz they're the only ones allowed in cuz they're alreadythere.You have the United Nations.You have allies like the UK, like France.You've got America now who wants to bring this to an end.Pretty much everybody around you.And And here's the irony for this.When When Israel attacked Iran, I thought that was a justified thing to do to neutralize Iran's nuclear capability.I was I was glad that Israel finally did that action.I was glad that Donald Trump joined in and and specifically targeted the nuclear capacity that Iran has.I think it would have been a disaster for the world if they were allowed to develop nuclear weapons.
But the way you went about taking on Iran, the way you went about taking on Hezbollah, there's no relation to what you've done in Gaza.You're just obliterating Gaza and you don't really care how many civilians are dying in the process.You say you do, but you don't really You can stop saying that.Just the fact that you Listen, Mr.Morgan, because you If you repeat something again and again and again, it won't make it true.That We don't want to kill innocent civilians in Gaza, period.But I'm telling you again and again that once they hide under human population and we have to eliminate terrorists, we have to do what we have to do.And then I don't remember you asking the allies that you were talking about in the in in World War II if if if if they were hiding about how how many Nazi how many children died when when we
eliminated the Nazis.I don't remember that.I I You know what?I don't remember in any mid-war where you count numbers, but you obviously emphasize on that what's going on in Gaza now.The difference once again, the difference between Gaza and Iran and Hezbollah Wait, you asked such a long question.You can't let me answer in one minute.The difference The difference I will answer.Let me finish.When the difference between Iran and Hezbollah is the The fact is that Gaza is the most crowded population that we need to deal with.And and 2 million people in the Gaza Strip that are so so crowded and the terrorists are hiding in between.You know, I I can tell you, Mr.Morgan.I don't think we'll eliminate I don't think we I don't think we will eliminate every Hamas person because we didn't eliminate every Nazi person.
I don't think we will.I'm not going to go into specifics with you.I'm going to tell you as a as a government member.I'm not going to We'll end this war.We'll end this war and you'll know everything.You'll be able to go in.You'll be able to hear all the numbers.I'm not going to go into specifics.Because because because I I can First of all, I know and I'm choosing as a government member to not tell you that because I know that once you get some knowledge, you turn it Of course I do.I'm a government member.But I can tell you What do you mean?How many terrorists did we kill?Yes.I can tell you that we have more.We have many more.How many?And this is what And this is what The reason I will not tell you.
I will not tell you.You can ask 100 times.But the reason Yes, exactly.How many civilians have you killed?The reason The reason The reason How many civilians have you killed?that we are trying to eliminate as a You can ask it again.I will not answer.How many civilians have you killed?Do you know?Do you know how many civilians you killed?Civilians I don't know.I don't know.So you do know how many terrorists you killed.You have no idea how many civilians you killed.Yes, because we have The difference is The difference is that we have a list of terrorists that we want to eliminate.We don't aim to kill innocent people in order We don't have a list of them.But I can tell you I can assure you that the IDF is trying to to avoid as much as many You know what, Minister?
You know what, Minister?You know what, Minister?You know what, Minister?It's not doing a very good job of avoiding killing innocent people.That is rude of you to not let me finish, Mr.Morgan.Let me finish one sentence.I can tell you that the IDF every time it needs to eliminate a terrorist, it tells the population to go to this humanitarian corridor or to this humanitarian corridor.They alert them in advance, unlike the terrorists who shoot at us and don't and and shoot at an and innocent population, murder children and women and elderly and men and and everything in their power they can.By the way, they they eliminate many many foreigners, dozens of of of foreign nationalities on October 7.What on earth did they did to them?So eventually, I just want to tell you that the IDF has no no willing whatsoever to shoot at an innocent population when they want in actual fact to save the Gazans from the real occupations of the Hamas terrorism
who abuses them.And I wonder if you see those videos that the Hamas people are uh the I'm sorry, that the Gazans are freeing in the in the WhatsApp and in in in the the social medias when they're saying Hamas won'tlet us out.Hamas won't let us take the the humanitarian aid.Hamas is killing us if we're just daring to talk.And if you think that Hamas is a legitimate ruling, then I don't know what to say.But if you don't, and I think you don't, I think you don't, then you should be thanking us like the rest of the world for freeing the Gazans from the Hamas ruling, which is a Nazi terror of ourdays.I started this interview by saying Hamas should not obviously be in charge anymore.But I also think the IDF should stop what they're doing in Gaza now because too many innocent people have been killed.
And I'm afraid I don't believe what the IDF or the Israeli government is now saying about what's happening in Gaza because you won't let the media in to verify it.And in my experience as a long history of being a journalist, when people stop journalists going into an area like Gaza during a war, it's because they don't want people to see what they're doing there.They've got something to hide.
The panel begins with strong reactions to Golan's interview, with Wijat Ali condemning her remarks and citing inflammatory quotes from Israeli officials. The discussion broadens to the West Bank, aid distribution, and allegations of IDF shootings at food lines.
Anyway, I've got to leave it there.My Golan, thank you very much indeed for joining me.I appreciate it.Well, let me turn to my panel now who've been waiting very patiently throughout all this.Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of the British Army in Afghanistan, trustee of the UK Friends Association for the Wellbeing of Israel Soldiers.Wijat Ali, the host of the Democracyish Podcast.And the pro-Israeli activist with PragerU, Shamus Custonbaum.Well, welcome to all of you.Sorry for keeping you waiting there.Um let me start with you, Wijat.I mean, you were listening there to that interview with the Israeli government minister.Your thoughts?I don't have to say anything after you did a masterful job of interviewing her and the world listening to her unhinged lunacy and genocidal comments.I mean, I I rest my case, Piers.That's is the Minister of Social Equality in Israel.
With Ministers of Social Equality, who needs Ministers of Genocide?I mean, that woman was completely racist and unhinged.And speaking about, you know, the quotes of her colleagues, the Israeli leaders right now.I want I brought some receipts for you, Piers.This is what Smotrich has actually said, the Finance Minister of Israel, quote, "We are conquering, cleansing, and remaining in Gaza until Hamas is destroyed."End quote.Another quote by Smotrich, "We are finally going to occupy the Gaza Strip.We will stop being afraid of the word occupation."Another quote from Smotrich, "Within a few months, Gaza will be totally destroyed.The Gazan citizens will be concentrated in the south.They will be totally despairing, understanding that there's no hope and nothing to look for in Gaza."This is what the President of Israel said, "There are no innocent civilians in Gaza."This is what the Deputy Speaker of Israel's Parliament said, "Israel has quote one common goal, erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the Earth."
For the past year and a half, Piers, I've been on your show.And in the past year and a half, you have asked me, "Do I condemn the violence done by Hamas?"What did I say, Piers?Yes, I do cuz I'm against violent extremism, whether it's a terrorist group or whether it's state-sanctioned terrorism.But what we've seen in the past year and a half, especially that report 3 days ago, is the IDF has been commanded to shoot at unarmed civilians, Palestinians who are at a food distribution site.Piers, any person with any morality, any decency who believes in God like I do, how can they support the IDF shooting Palestinian civilians who are trying to get humanitarian aid?You know how many Palestinians have been killed in the quote-unquote killing field?That's an IDF soldier's word, not mine.570 Palestinians, unarmed, trying to get food.
Why is that food there through humanitarian aid?Because Israel, like you mentioned, has done a blockade cuz Israel occupies Gaza.The occupation is immoral.The settlements are immoral.We haven't even talked about the West Bank, Piers.I know you've been there.I've been there.The terrorism that has been unleashed against I think the expansion of settlements on the West Bank is absolutely appalling.It's disgusting.It's enough is enough.It's illegal and it shouldn't be happening.Colonel Kemp, let me bring you in here.You you've just been over there.Um You know, I You're very supportive of Israel's government and the IDF and what they're doing.But surely with all your military experience, even you must be looking at what's happening now in Gaza and thinking this has got to come to an end.I think everyone's thinking it's got to come to an end.Certainly the Israelis are thinking it's got to come to an end.
They've been fighting a vicious, brutal terrorist organization for 20 months that is embedded completely in the civilian population.They've been doing their very best and I've witnessed it myself inside Gaza with the IDF.They've been doing their very best to minimize the deaths of innocent civilians.And I think they've succeeded to a large extent in that.I don't know what the latest figure is from Hamas, but it's something around 50, 60,000 or thereabouts.That's their estimate and of course we can't rely on that in any way, but we've got nothing else to go to go on.The The IDF don't issue estimates of their civilians that they think they might have killed.But they have issued estimates of the number of Hamas terrorists that they think they've killed.Not obviously not exact.And it's something around about 25 to 30,000.Why don't they count the civilians?
How How do you do that?I mean, you don't know how many civilians there are.That's because they're targeting the terrorists.They know who they're targeting and they believe they know when they believe they've killed them.You can't You can't count every single person that's coming under attack.And And the reality is that if if those figures are correct, and let's assume for a moment they are, I particularly I don't trust the Hamas figures, but let's assume they're correct.That means that it's approximately one civilian killed for every combatant killed inside Gaza in the last 20 months, which is terrible.It's a really terrible statistic.But if you compare it to Afghanistan, the Americans and their allies estimate they killed about five civilians for every combatant in Afghanistan and three in Iraq.And the United Nations estimate that in combat in urban combat since the Second World War, about nine civilians have died for every combatant.
So it show You know, this is not This is not easy.Hamas is doing their level best to make Israel kill as many of their own civilians as possible to achieve exactly what they have achieved, which is a vilification of the It's See, my argument would be back to you,Colonel Kemp, is that Israel is not achieving its its goals.It's not got rid of Hamas, that's clear.It's not got the hostages released.In fact, they've only been released during diplomatic phases of this 20-month war.Um they're now talking openly through people like Smotrich, the finance minister, of of ethnic cleansing the entire Gaza Strip of all Palestinians, which is a war crime if they try and do that.They try and kick them all out.Um so none of the goals which they set out to achieve have been achieved.And don't look like anything near being achieved.
And at the same time you've got 70% of Gaza has been destroyed.You've got this moving population being moved around.And wherever they move to, they then get bombed again.You've got thousands of them queuing up desperately for food despite Israelis claiming no one there's hungry.Well, what are they stampeding each other for to get fragments of food if that's not the case?And then you've got this Haratz report, which of course Netanyahu has emphatically denied.And the Haratz report coming from IDF soldiers they they sourced, saying that that a lot of the people dying in these shooting incidents in in the food lines are being shot dead by Israelis.So you're pulling people If this is true, and it's an Israeli publication, if this is true, Well, you you can you can laugh, Colonel Kemp, but why would you laugh?I laugh because it's fiction.
That was a quote.It's killing The the Haratz report, as far as I can see, deliberately distorted what was they were told in the Hebrew version.The soldiers apparently said, "We were told to shoot in the direction of Hamas of civilians who were rising not true.No, that I've read that I've read I've read that.It's simply not true.That's a That's a conspiracy theory, honestly.It's a conspi- It is a conspiracy theory because they they talked about the killing fields.They talked about lots of people dying.570 people dying.I read the article and I don't believe it's true.I've I've been As I said before, I've been inside Gaza with the IDF before.I've seen the extraordinary measures they take to minimize civilian the report you gave, Colonel Kemp, even the report you did had gunfire in the background at the end.Let's take a look.
Many of the people behind me here have told me it's the first time they've ever received free aid.So don't believe the propaganda that's been turned out by Hamas and amplified by too much of the international and national media.
Colonel Kemp disputes claims that the aid-site gunfire showed IDF attacks, arguing the footage was misread and that Hamas is responsible. Piers and the panel argue over why journalists are barred from Gaza and whether that prevents independent verification.
I mean, it was almost like a a comedy sketch if it wasn't so serious.There you are saying, "Don't believe any of the stories of of Israelis shooting at people here."And next thing you hear is a machine gun going off.Yeah, you may you may find machine guns funny, but those of us who have who have find it funny, but it it flew in the face of what you literally were saying on camera.You said it was a comedy sketch.That machine gun I said it I said it would be funny if it had been a comedy sketch, but it was actually serious.I was in that base in that distribution aid distribution site for around about 2 to 3 hours.In that time I heard a huge number of explosions, gunfire, etc.etc.etc.because this is in a war zone.And you get machine gunfire, you get explosions in a war zone.
That machine gunfire, if you look at that video clip carefully, you would see that not one single Gazan flinched when that fire was heard because it was nowhere near the aid distribution site.It was distant fire constantly going on.But you can, you know, you can try and turn that into the idea that it's the IDF Many people have on social media tried to say this is the IDF shooting civilians.Why would the IDF want to shoot at civilians at a humanitarian aid site that they support, that they helped to set up, and that they want to work?They wouldn't.It would make no sense whatsoever.The people that are doing the shooting are Hamas.I spoke to many Gazan civilians, at least 50 in that Why don't Why don't the journalists get in then?Let the journalists in and that can be verified.They have told me why don't I let the journalists got nothing to do with Why doesn't Israel let the journalists in then?
It's shameful.This is shameful.You'll have to ask Israel that.I would We all know why they're not letting them in, Colonel Kemp.It's because they don't want the world to see what's happening.Let me Let me bring in Let me bring in Shammas, who's been waiting patiently.Shammas, The first reason The first You've asked me a question, let me answer it.The first reason is because there's a very big danger if journalists went in on their own of getting kidnapped.That Okay, you say Well, that's that's the risk that they should be prepared to take themselves.Israel has killed journalists.You say that, but then Western journalists kidnapped inside Gaza become another So that's why you have a 20-month me ban media ban.Come on.And the second second reason I I don't know this for sure.I'm I'm surmising.But the second reason, if I was in that position, I would be very hesitant to let journalists in because I've seen how many journalists distort what they see from the west, from Britain, from the United Well, how convenient.
How convenient.Don't Don't let the journalists in.Only let the IDF tell the story.How very convenient.
Shamus Custonbaum defends Israel's military campaign by comparing it to past wars and rejecting claims of expansionism. The debate ends with Piers arguing that the mission has failed and that Israeli policy has become indistinguishable from war crimes.
Let me bring in Shammas, who's been waiting very patiently.We We haven't got as long as we would normally have because we we ran over with the minister, but Shammas, I mean, your response to this?I I would start by saying this, Piers, you know how many Jews are living in Gaza?It's zero.You know how many Jews are living in Ramallah?It's zero.You know how many Jews are living in Nablus?It's zero.You know how many Jews are living in Jenin?It's zero.After Egypt and half a dozen other Arab Muslim countries attacked Israel in 1967, Israel was able to conquer an area called the Sinai Peninsula that is two times as large as Israel.And in 1979, they gave it back to Egypt unilaterally and unconditionally.In 2005, Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip.They expelled every last living and dead Jew from Gaza all in the name of peace.
The argument that Israel is is experiencing or is trying to have an expansionist greater state of Israel is not corroborated by the facts or reality.And all I can say is thank God that there was no Piers Morgan on censor during World War because what you would do during the bombing of Dresden, during the Battle of Berlin, is you would have German commentatorstalking about the civilian death toll and how terrible it is that the Why was the Geneva Convention set up?The Geneva Convention was set up specifically in order to deride the world of having Nazism and fascism in the future.Actually, it was designed specifically Specifically to avoid some of the things that we saw in World War II.That was why it was set up.Correct.And the Geneva Convention made it clear that unfortunately war in the 20th and 21st century is a necessary evil.
It is terrible to have civilians being killed.It is terrible when you have a civilian death toll.But unfortunately, that is a consequence of every war ever fought in modern warfare.I mean, do you know how many German civilians were killed during World War II?It was 2 to 3 million.Do you know how many Austro-Hungarians were killed during World War I?It was anywhere from 500,000 to 1 million.But if we judge We're not in a world war.We're in a war between the most powerful military in the Middle East and a 2 million strong with half of those being under 18 population of the Gaza Strip, which has been under occupation now for decades.That's what we're talking about.It's not a world war.We're not talking about a world war.We're talking about the most sophisticated military in the Middle East relentlessly bombarding for 20 months a small area of land, the Gaza Strip, with with a million people under 18.
That's what we're talking about.Now, I I agree Hamas had to be got rid of, but it hasn't happened.And at some point there has to be an acknowledgement that this mission has failed.And all that's happened is Gaza has been flattened, more and more innocent people are being killed, none of the mission goals are being achieved.And now we've got members of the government openly saying, "Actually, what we want to do is kick all the Palestinians out."Openly saying it.So this mission has changed from self-defense to actually ethnic cleansing.That's my problem with it.These are democratic politicians who are not controlling the war.You Have you heard the prime minister?Have you heard members of the war cabinet?Have you heard them talking about ethnic cleansing the Gazan population?Yes.He's the finance minister.He's equivalent to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for goodness sake.
He's not involved.Come on, Colonel Kemp.Take your blinkers off, man.And And he think Smotrich is involved in anything that's happening.What a ludicrous statement.I'm sorry.I have great respect for you and your and your military career, but what a ridiculous statement.Seriously.And the other the other point that you made is that the the Israel is not achieving its objective.It is achieving its objectives.It's taken a very long time.It's been terrible.It's taken a long time.It's a very complex war.It's very difficult.They've destroyed huge elements of Hamas.I said before, maybe around 25 to 30,000 of them, which is not far off the number they started with.And also they are having hostage release.You said they've been released only through diplomatic means.How did those diplomatic means come about?Through military pressure.Okay.That's how it happened.
And they need to continue Yeah, final word and we're done.Final quote.What we're doing in Gaza now is a war of devastation, indiscriminate, limitless, cruel, and criminal killing of civilians.We're not doing this through the loss of control in any specific sector, not due to some disproportion outburst by some soldiers in one unit.Rather, it's the result of government policy, knowingly, evilly, maliciously, irresponsibly dictated.Yes, Israel is committing war crimes.And that's a quote from former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.Yeah.And I agree.It is true.And I interviewed him and he reiterated that to me.All right.I've got to leave it.I'm sorry we didn't have more time for the debate.We we ran late with the minister who was running late herself, but I appreciate you for your patience and for the debate that we were able to have.
The episode closes with the show's standard sign-off and a request for viewers to subscribe and follow. The host emphasizes the importance of independent uncensored media.
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