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The interview opens with praise for John Bellion and a discussion of his biggest songs, early success, and the idea that creative success comes from persistence rather than instant results. It sets up the central theme of willingness to fail and keep swinging.
Are you willing to look stupid for 10 years?I'm talking to creative people.That's the question.The question is not if you're good enough.Question is if you're willing to keep swinging.Give it up for John.Everyone over 1 billion streams worldwide.He is a monster.You know, we've been a fan of his work for many, many years.Multiaceted collaborator, singer, songwriter, multiple Grammy nominees.The fastest song to a billion to a billion streams.Yeah.You quit music as an artist.Why did you decide to come back and why now?One thing I do believe deeply in my heart is that the things I'm saying on this album will help people because people were like, "Where's John Belli?"And for me, it was if he like never disappeared because every time a song would come out, I'd go to the song credits.I'd be like, "There he is.
He's still going."Were there a lot of songs that were failures before the monster connected?Every song I ever made was a failure before the monster hit.Monday, Tuesday, when they turn I would never do that, but like it's fun to make it.Yeah.Rihanna's considered one of the greatest artists of all time.She barely writes anything.Why?Because she's the most genius level ANR ever.How do you measure success?To the degree you're willing to look silly by striking out is the degree you'll be successful.For anyone watching out there right now, I truly believe that this is a conversation that any creative should watch.This conversation has meant a lot to me and you're a great interviewer.One of the best I've had in in a long time.What do you hope that your kids feel when they hear father figure one day?
I mean, make me walk through the last 33 years of my life.Um,
Matter anything
at all.
So excited today and it is such an honor to be with the one and only John Bellia.Thank you for having me.I appreciate it, man.going behind the wall with John Bellian today.I started the series to shine a light on the people and stories behind music, movies, and media.But I have to be honest with you, I feel like I've been preparing for this interview for like 8 years now.Wow.When I first heard The Human Condition back in 2016, okay, one of an album that really connected with me, but specifically has one of my favorite outro songs of any album ever.Thank you.And also when I first started this series, there was like a there were like a list of people that I wanted to talk to no matter what.Couple of them were on this vision board I made.Ryan Ted, Betty Blanco, Farel, Timberlin, uh Rick Rubin, and one of them was you.
Wow, I love that.And I honestly like threw myself into research for this because I wanted to just I want everyone who's watching right now, not only who's like a massive John Bellian fan, but anyone out there who's maybe never heard ofyou to get to know you as a person, get to know your story.Love that.So I like dived in to so many of your interviews.Oh man.All back in the day.Okay.And I can tell why you didn't like doing interviews after a while because like some of the the same 10 questions.Oh yeah.Yeah.Yeah.Absolutely.And I remember around like 3 years ago we we reached out to someone on your team and we got the response that John doesn't do interviews anymore.Um, and now, you know, in my mind I was like, it's going to happen when it's supposed to happen.
Mhm.And when I got the email that not only like you wanted to do this, but you were keen to do this.Yeah.That was that was so exciting for me.As a creator, cuz I you are someone who has like really not only like been successful, but I think figured out what success means to you.And I feel like it's not talked about a lot.huge.That's the big Yeah, I could not That's That's like a number one for sure.What success means to you.Yeah, for sure.This definitely something I want to go over today.But we also are going to go over all the new music as well as your past and your story.I want to make sure we go over everything.But one of the things I always love starting with for everyone I talk to is I ask the same question every time.
And it is for anyone who may not know who you are, what are the songs they might know you from?umknow me from like my songs or songs that other people probably I would say all time low is probably like a song you've just like heard in the ether of life that people might not even know my face'sname attached to it but that would probably be my like biggest record to date.Um, and as far as like records I've written for other people, maybe um, Ghost, Justin Bieber, Holy Justin Bieber, Memories, Maroon 5, Graveyard, Hollyy, Briana, The Monster, uh, Elenium, Good Things Fall Apart, uh, Dualipa, Miley Cyrus, Prisoner, CamilaCabo, Shameless Liar, Yeah.So, you've probably heard something I've been involved with at some point.Yeah.amazing songs in uh CVS or some But my always the followup is is because I feel like everyone thinks that there's like an overnight success moment, but my favorite follow-up question because most people are going to know those
songs, but how many songs do you think you wrote until you got your first hit?Oh man,
genuinely from probably around high school, like early on high school, I was probably making a song a day every day.
I'm still kind of doing that.Um, so I guess whatever calculation that adds up to, probably thousands.Probably realistically, yeah, if it's multiple years, I was making sometimes two songs a day.Um, yeah.I would say probably thousands of songs before I've had my first my first cut, my first global number one.Yeah.Crazy.
John explains what kept him making music for thousands of songs, describing his childhood fascination with sound and the deep personal escape music gave him. He also talks about his early process and how making music became his identity.
So, you But like one of the other things I noticed is like you've made so many songs and you continue making songs and in all the interviews that I've seen, everyone's always asked you like, "How did you getinto music?"And that's a great question, but the thing I want to like ask more for this is like what about music kept you making music and why did you keep making music?You said like you said you wrote thousands of songs.Why were you writing thousands of songs?What about music?Great question.Um, I just remember as a really little kid, like my earliest earliest memories are just like experiencing songs for the first time.And I realized that and I realized that just like they they they affected me way deeper than other people like even kids that were around me or certain things would come on in the car and it would just
take me to an entire different place.I saw it differently.It all registered differently in my brain for sure.So then right around the time my brother like brought home a keyboard and like was able to make beats and stuff.It was just like oh I'm never doing anything again for the rest of my life.The first time I ever touched just a beat pad.I was like I'm never this is this is it.I just knew.You could ask my family.You could ask my friends.You guys ever I will do this for the rest of my life.Whether I am successful at it or not.I know that I want to do this for the rest of my life.And I just never stopped.You could ask my mom.She's she might come into the to the crib today.She used to come into my room and be like, "Did you eat?"
She'll be like, "Did you eat yesterday?"I'll be like, "I can't remember."She be like, "Have you been in here for 48 hours and you haven't slept yet?And why do you have your bed on the floor?Why are you sleeping on the floor next to your music equipment?"Like, and that doesn't mean I was necessarily a hard worker.I just fell in love with it.I think it also provided me like an escape from from the world and the reality of the world as a young kid for whatever I was going through at the time or whatever.So, it just meant a lot to me and it still it still does.I' It's funny.I've I've made the joke the other day is that I've worked my whole career to do the same thing I did at the beginning of my career, which is hang out in my basement, dress however I want to
dress, come and and work with great people and just make songs every day.That's I've realized like I had to go around the full world circuit and the gambit and accomplish and touch the top of the mountain to realize that the process is actually the whole the whole reason to wake up.It's the process.It's nothing else.It's the process.What does the process look like to you like when you're like making music?Now it's different.I mean, like early on the process was just out in LA studio till 8:00 in the morning, fall asleep, wake up, eat something shitty, and go back at it at 2 3:00 p.m.and then just never leave the studio.And just never and however you sleep is how you sleep.And whatever you do is how do you do it?And I think that's a young man's game.
I got three kids now.Um Yeah.Yeah.And I and I can't do that anymore for my health and circadian rhythm and all that stuff cuz you realize that I realize now that like stopping my day purposefully at the same time every day actually forces meto be more creative cuz I get to walk away from it.So I'm in the shower the next morning or before I go to bed at night I can think about the song from like a macro standpoint if that makes sense.So the process now is just Monday through Friday 11 to 7 without question.Monday through Friday 11 to 7.Sometimes I don't work Fridays, but yeah.And then Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I'm just whatever the boys want to do and hang out and hang out with.Yeah.So, okay, this is actually interesting cuz 11 to 7 Monday through Friday, you're waking let's say it's like a a Tuesday.
It's 11:00 a.m.How are you starting music?Like what is like is it pro is it different every day or like do you have Yeah, definitely.It depends.Like last literally last week, Camila Cabo just I have a a studio house connected to my house like in the back.That sounded so um she was here she was here for the week with her mom and she stayed and they did press and did a bunch of stuff at the house.But every morning from 11 to 7:00 she came with Deacy who's a super talented writer.Um Pete Nappy and oh my gosh I'm blanking on his name.First time I ever worked with him.Fetty.Guy named Fetty.He's super talented producer.He's amazing.How do you spell it?F.Feed D E.So, I just want to make sure everyone knows I work into um he was here and we were in this room and every morning at 11, we'd write stuff on the board and what's our goal here?
Who are you trying to be?What's your goal?What do you like about your last album?What do you not like about your what how are we who are you now?Let's dive into it.And throughout the week, you're kind of you're kind of fishing and you're kind of hoping something shows up.But in general, it's a pretty chill vibe out here.It's like taking a break, going outside, my kids are running around.It's it's a it's a pretty holistic approach to to all of it.It's not so LA.Yeah.I said this to you before that like one of one of my favorite things to do with these is to always go out to the person because I feel they feel most comfortable in their space, which is oneof the reasons I was so happy to do this.I was like, it's just so this is awesome.
This is awesome.I was like, he's going to come through here.I was like, tell them to come through.I love that.So, you talked about making thousands upon thousands of songs back in the day, but when did you become proud of the music you made or like even confident in it?Was it like right away or did it take a while?That's a crazy That's a crazy question.You could even ask my dad.Maybe he'll be walking around at some point.Um, he used to play the songs that I would make and he used to take them from my computer and I used to burn them on CDs and sell them at school.So, like I'd have CDs all over my room and uh he would used to take them and then like we'd have family over or he'd have people over and he'd play them in the backyard and I remember as
like a 16-year-old like covering my ears being like, "Don't play that.It's not the radio."So, I always had this like weird realistic look at my music.Like even at 16, I'd be like, "Don't play them the stuff that I'm working on."I'd be like in the backyard like cringing even though it was something I recently made because I would just be listening to Timberland or I would just be listening to the Neptunes or I would just be listening tosomething Rick Rubin did or you know even Tedar I mean he's been around so long it's like I would just be listening to the radio and I would constantly be in my car turning on the radio and thenputting in a CD and turning on the radio and being like why does their drums like what is the magic that they're doing of the drums and the pre going into the melodic math and and like the sonics
behind what was going on.It had this sheen or this this pop or this feel that was just like like somebody making a shoe in their garage or somebody making like a Jordan.Like you're just like why do I not know how to make the Jordan?Is it the factory?Is it the stitching?Is it the whatever?And I've I've always had like a um very realistic sense of myself or to some degree at least to be as successful of whatever success means.But there's always been this like not yet.I have it.I have it, but this isn't good enough.I know I have it, but this isn't good.I got to make 300 more.I know I have it, but this isn't on that level.It's not the same level.And then I'd kind of like play stuff in high school at parties and see people's reactions or I'd like I'd always be like, "Is this moving the party along?
What's the utility of a song?How are they making songs that make people want to dance?"It's like, "Oh, there's like rhythms and pockets and things going."It's always just I'm to this day I'm still like playing things for people who don't really listen to even music that much or people that don't know about music or whatever.I've always had this curiosity around it.I've always had a a weird confidence.Again, you could ask my dad.We have this conversation all the time.This is probably 15 years ago, 17 years ago.My dad my dad brings it up every time something is accomplished.He goes, "Remember that time we spoke?I was telling my dad like, "I don't know what I have, but I have it.I see it.I see it and I know it.I see it and I know it."It's like, I don't know.
I don't want to work at the catering hall anymore.Like, I know I have this thing.It was 3:00 in the morning.I'm like pacing back and forth at my dad's house.I remember it so vividly and just being like, I and he's like, what is it?I'm like, I don't know, but it it exists in me and it I can do this.So, I don't know if that even answers your question.
He reflects on his complicated relationship with confidence, his realistic self-criticism, and the moment his father and others began hearing his work. The section ends with the story of how a college mixtape led to a major meeting and eventually 'The Monster.'
I get passionate about it, but like it's just like when was I confident in it?Some days I'm the greatest living musician breathing and then other days I'm like I don't even know if I could do this anymore.Just depends on my So, it goes back and forth even today.Oh, for sure.Yeah.To this day, if I leave the studio with nothing, my wife knows.I come up to the kitchen, she's like, "How'd it go today?"Like, I don't even know, man.Like, do I even do this?Like, how do you make a hit?You know, like at 33 years old, I'm like, "How did I do that so many times?Will I ever do that again?The landscape's so different."And then there's other days where we make something that I love so much that I'm obsessed with.I'm just like, "Nobody with me."
But I think that me giving myself the grace to be so up and so down on that spectrum gives me also the grace to explore emotionally, which is why I'm probably consistently potent because humans can can interact withemotion rather than just like being skillful.Like you watch somebody play a piano or some incredibly and some of the chords go over your head doesn't necessarily like move you.You know what I mean?Like the most talented people in the world sometimes don't make the best to listen to.So, sorry a lot in there.Yeah.Yeah.But, but what you were saying like the simplicity is a talent in of itself.Like making something that that many people can connect with.Um, and even something uh I'm sure that there's times when you make a song and you're like there's no way this is ever going to be a hit and it just becomes this like massive song.
Absolutely.Yes.That's happened.That's happened multiple times to me.For sure.If you're watching this, there's a good chance you want to put out music.You already put out music or know someone who puts out music.And what most people don't know, it was almost impossible to do that back in the day.In fact, Queen had to sell their van just to record their first album.It was impossible to put out music back in the day.And when I wanted to first put out music around 6 years ago, it felt so complicated and expensive and I didn't know where to start.Well, that was until I found Drokid.Drokid is the actual music distribution platform that I've been using for years now.It is seamless.It is easy.It allows me to post my music to every single streaming platform at an annual flat rate.
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Head to the description now to check it out for yourself at a discount.And now, let's get back to one of the greatest musicians ever, John Bell.Something you said I think is one of the most important things and it's something I found very fascinating about your story which is I don't want to go back to the catering hall and I feel like a lotof creatives have to work a job that they don't want to in order to be like to get on the path that they want.Yep.Tell me about like that time in your life and how did you like continue to work at the catering hall while also doing music?It's that was probably now over over a decade ago.So it's it's like relatively blurry, but like I just remembercuz you were like working at the catering hall as I was and then
I was working at the catering hall and then like got fired or something happened where I like lost my job 3 days later.That's when I got a like a a really really huge phone call from I was selling CDs in college and I was selling them out of Ziplockc bags for like $7 a pop and uh someone got their handsone of the interns that used to go to the school knew someone who was at the school gave it to this dude Matt Mashy who's now actually um one of the heads of my company um he got itto Caruardi and uh he was an intern for her at the time and he was like yo I found this kid that goes to Five Towns College and here's his songs and there was like something like 350 50songs that were on like a ROM CD that she like listened to and just kind of called me out of my sleep one day like 3 days after I got fired from the catering hall and was like found
your number through your college there.There'll be a limousine coming to your house to come and pick it up.I'm like get the And Matt who called me at the time he never spoke to me.He called me out of the blue.I was like I found your mixtape.I found your number through Five Towns College.Like you go there.It's my cell phone.He's like I got you a meeting with the woman who was on American Idol.Like blah blah blah blah blah.And I'm like literally you can ask Matt.I was like, "Dude, who the is calling my phone, bro?It's like 8:45 in the morning.Like, I've had too many disappointments.Like, cut the kind of thing."And he was like, "I'm telling you, she's going to call you."And then like 10 minutes later, my phone rang from a number I didn't have.
And I picked it up and she was like, "Hi, I'm Carrie.Who are you?"I'm like, "I'm John.What are you really?Is it really you?"I'm like, "Get the out of here.Like, what are you talking about?"Because at that time, she was on American Idol.She was like a huge songwriter.She had a bunch of hits with Kelly Clarkson and it's like a big big time.And uh she was like, "We want to sign the producer.We want to sign the writer.We want to sign the guy who's mixing it.We want to sign."I was like, "That's just me and my in my dorm room."She literally was like, "Click."And the limousine came and picked up me and my dad drove us into the city from Long Island.Yeah.I called my dad.I called my dad.I was like, "Someone just called me.
They're going to get in a limo."My dad was like, "Don't get in a freaking limo at all if someone's coming to you know what I mean?"And uh we ended up both going in.We went into the city.I played the keys for her.played her a bunch more songs that I had and probably eight or nine months later is Eminem and Rihanna the monster.So yeah, that's crazy.
John discusses how he measures success, why streaming numbers can distort art, and how he tries to stay detached from metrics. He also describes the emotional pressure that still comes with releasing music and the voice of self-doubt that never fully leaves.
I definitely want to talk about that.I kind of just blew up.Yeah.Fast.Yeah.How do you measure Okay, so this is interesting because like nowadays I think everyone, especially in the social media age, is so focused on like success tied with numbers.Yeah.Meaning like high streams, high views, high money, whatever that is.Yep.um when how do you measure success for your music and then also what does success look like to you now?And yeah, let's just start there.Yeah.Oh my goodness, dude.That's like the most meta question like of all time.I'm of the elk of I would appreciate it if Spotify, Apple, they didn't post numbers.Explode the internet.I I know.It's like that's how you gauge success.There's there's nothing to I don't know how we would change that.I just think that that me I've heard things with less streams that I'm way more inspired by that I think is way tighter than some of the stuff that has a bajillion streams.
And I've made some of the stuff with a bajillion streams.So it's like I've made things that don't have a billion streams and I made things that have some of the most streams out of all songs to ever be made.So it's like what I've noticed throughout all of it is that there's comes this prowess with numbers that kind of inflates the opinion around what the art actually is.But art is also super subjective.So, it's like I don't really have an answer for it.But as far as numbers goes, likebeing super real.Yeah.I have not checked the numbers on Father Figure and what it's done.He tells me every once in a while like, "Yo, you know, you broke 10 million streams today.You know, you broke 15 million streams today.Yo, this thing's moving and why?"Cuz we just dropped a song called Why with Luke Holmes officially two or three days ago.
You know, we got a million streams the first day, a million streams the second day.It's averaging 500,000 streams a day now.It was like, "Yeah, cool."I like I So, what happens if it gets 10 billion streams?Like, I don't know.Because then it's like, "Do we bring it to radio and I pay a quarter of a million to then go do that over there on the radio game?"And I don't know.To be honest with you, this whole project for me, I've treated it as just like one giant little drop into the if the bucket has has white water in it.I have a black ink dropper and I just want to drop black ink into the white water to see how culture can be affected.The numbers, I can't get wrapped up in that.Like even we just dropped tickets.I don't know the temperature for people coming to see shows with me anymore because it's been so long since I've toured and I walked away at the peak of my touring career.
We did 10,000 people at Jones Beach was the last show that we played which is like a it's a pretty big pretty big venue on Long Island.Yeah.Um we dropped tickets to this thing and sold there was only 300 tickets.It's a it's the first show I ever played in a small place called SOBS.But the tickets sold out in 18 in in 18 seconds or something.That's insane.Yeah.And then today we did another one cuz we were kind of like a lot of people are upset and we misjudged.I did a fake Instagram and a forum away from social media to try to gauge and keep it healthy and not get wrapped up in this numbers thing.I'm trying to control that expectation or whatever to do things that just make me happy.And uh we sold out in in 20 seconds the warehouse.
We have full-blown warehouse.So we what are the numbers and what is success?Whatever.I'm losing money on shooting all these videos.I'm losing money on giving writers points.I'm losing money on putting together a show at sobs and making sure the ticket price is low enough for people to afford it.I'm losing money.Yeah.Many people would say that this has just been a giant loss financially for me cuz I've seen zero dollars from all of it.I'm I'm bringing in some of the best producers in the world, giving them a fair shake, making sure writers get a point.Like, so what do the numbers mean?Monetarily, I've this album has been a failure out of the gate because I'm in the negative.Maybe we put up a giant show and sell out 14,000 people and maybe that put I lose 100 grand on that because we want to make the tickets affordable and whatever whatever but so people would say John Bian's
business isn't isn't in the in the green right now musically but who knows what culture will bring my way in the future cuz I'm considering just me spending millions of dollars on a commercial for myself.So you can't quantify success like the Jonas Brothers album was not their most popular album that I did for them and critically it was very split 50/50.People people either said, "I hate that you tried to push the Jonas Bros in the direction."Or other people were like, "This sound feels so new."But Farel called me because of that album.And I got to Forel because he was like, "Man, what the you do with those boys?"Blah blah blah blah.What the Who's playing on that?It's like, "Oh, those are my producers."And then I'm in I see Forel every four months.He jumps on my and helps me with my songs and he's been a mentor to me.
So what is data?What is numbers?What is success?What is culture?What is all of it?as it starts to get more analytical, it starts to get less defined of what success is because there's no gatekeepers.Success for me is just like I'm If I was ecstatic doing what I'd love to do every single day, if you told me I had zero streams, I would still praise God.If I was miserable and had 17,000 bajillion streams and became the president of music, but I wanted to kill myself.I don't I I'm not sure.I'm not sure.Was there ever because you said like and not and sorry not that those have to be mutually exclusive.Not that people who are doing so successful Taylor Swift numbers are so miserable.I'm not saying that they're in the wrong.I'm just saying like it's tough to stop the guy that loves Woody.
Oh, I don't even care that you do or don't like it.I'm just enjoying myself.It's hard to stop that guy.You can't bully that guy into You can't bully that guy.True.Yeah.Cuz you just do what you love.I'm not even in this for you liking it or disliking it.I I am feeling something and I'm crying every freaking three days because I love this song that I'm making.It's like I've won.Okay, shut that off.Go up.Enjoy.Balance, health.You know what I'm saying?Like it's it's like it's such a deep question.The numbers are what generate the attention which generates your ideas being viable.So, you always have to kind of be worried about your relevancy because the deepest fear I think of all creatives is that they're the the deepest fear is that their product and their ideas are not respected.
Therefore, they're not viable.Therefore, they're not listened to.Therefore, they'll be left on an island alone to never be listened to ever again.Which is why some producers fear falling off or artists feel falling off and they hate to go on YouTube and see the clip of why so and so fell off or it's likeYeah.What are numbers?I don't I don't even know.Was there like like eight years ago you talked about getting like I don't even know if I answered that in any way.But you did.Eight years ago you talked about getting your first number one.Uh not even number I don't know why I did that.You're getting your your first number one.The monster.Mhm.Was there a time where you ever measured success based on getting number ones or like awards or anything like Billboard number one hits or no?
Yes and no.It was like the first day that that came out um the first day that that song came out immediately I almost like felt borderline suicidal just cuz it was 2 days after it came out and I already waslike, "Yeah, but the great ones do too.Anyone can get one."Like I was like, "Oh my god."Even just hearing that voice in my head like be like, "You worked the last 10 years of your life to get to this position."And by day two, I was like, "Yeah, but the great ones have six."And how old am I?Like how old am I?How many did Benny have before he was turned this age?And the legend of the D.It was like, "Ah, One back to work.I haven't accomplished I haven't accomplished shit."And that once I heard that voice in my own head say that, I was like, "Uhoh, there's something to analyze here."
So you definitely have to keep that in perspective.Is that voice still there?
Absolutely.Absolutely.To say that I've reached some sort of like sensei level of like whatever.But also bless God that I think that way sometimes cuz I think that's what's driven the level of success maybe that I've had.But it also can be a a big big dark monkey on your back for sure.
The conversation shifts to his current life goals, which he says are helping people, quality of life, and family. He talks about balancing fatherhood, creativity, therapy, and the idea that he is more of an instrument than the one in control.
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And now, let's return to John Bellia.So, what's interesting is like I was watching going back to all the interviews you did 8 years ago.During an interview, you said you had three goals in life.Do you remember what those three goals were?No.You go on a ton of vacations with a lot of your friends.Yeah.Want a really dope fish tank in your house?My I'm still arguing with my wife about that.But literally he's he's laughing cuz literally two days ago I was just talking about with my wife and she's like, "It's going to stink up the house.We're not having this conversation in the basement."That's what I said.Let me do it in the basement.Like you should I'm going to bring her in here and you should have that conversation with her.Yeah.That's amazing.And then the last one was do what you want when you want.
Yeah.What are your three goals in life now?
Oh my goodness.That's a great question.
help people.
Quality of life and quality of life.That would probably be the the top three.Especially when you like and I have to speak this way because it's just the reality.Like when you've rung the bell so many times, you really start to reposition why what's my purpose here?Because at the one point it was just like I just want to have as many hits as I can have because I just like a bunch of hits.I like a bunch of money.I like this.And then when you do it you and one flops or one does really really well or a bunch don't work and it crushes your spirits and you say, "Oh, am I only identifying with the success of the hitsthat I have?"Well, that's not healthy.Well, then what am I doing this for?It's like this return to a holistic approach to the process.
It sounds like super pseudo and and like heady, but like
I hate saying this.I hate I hate cuz you want to you want to grab nuggets of information to help people in the utility of whatever, but I I really can't lie to you.LikeI don't do interviews ever.So I'm I don't I tend to get emotional when talking about things because I'm just not used to this process because I've been like talking so much with so many people for this album in such a short vastuh amount of time.I really love my life.Like I really do.It's three things that I want or like those three boys.Yeah.It's been a long road to homeostasis.It's been a long I've been doing this for a really long time.I've had to question why I do it thousands of times.I've had to show up every day to work.And to come to the conclusion that you're just an instrument, you're not the guy playing it.
Takes the pressure off.And you just show up to every day and say, "I'm the instrument.If God wants to come in the room and play me today, he does.And if he doesn't, that's great, too.My quality of life lately has been pretty great.People are always like, "Oh, the show's sold out in two seconds."And dude, you don't even realize you can go do all these tours and it and the last thing people want to hear is just like I I also just like am okay.One thing I do believe deeply in my heart is that the things I'm saying on this album will help people.Makes me emotional.that that is all I want to accomplish this year is that this album helps people.And I don't mean people who are so great that don't need help.I mean people who need help.
Yeah.Yeah.I I was gonna say something really stood out about this album in particular is that, you know, most artists, a lot of artists make songs about, you know, love, heartbreak, success, but you're making an album about like fatherhood,which really stood out.One of the things that you made in the making of the wash video, you said that I want to make being a present dad cool.Yeah.But like at the same time, was creating that concept scary and then also was there pressure to make it commercially successful?Yes, I think all of it.It's like youYeah, cuz what's there's a fine line between like humanity and vanity.There's like there's there's two things there.And when those two things intersect in a great way, it usually is a really potent product.Too much humanity, it's like like after school special.Too much vanity, it's like I don't even like you.
you're such an But we both we in us at the same time, we have humanity and vanity.So how do you take the humanity of the fear around being a present father and the vanity of wanting to change music?And then if you can combine those two things, you might end up with something that looks like the newest shoe you've ever seen.So I'm shooting to make the newest shoe you've ever seen and talk about things that you haven't heard or present concepts and shapes of the heel and the tongue of the shoe.Like I'm shooting to do that.And if that doesn't happen, how do you quantify if that does happen?And what's the measure of culture?You don't you're not able to.But is there a pressure?Not particularly.It's more about like the internal struggle of trying to put out an album that you're constantly like you're not the guy to do that.
You are a guy who struggles to be present.You are a guy who loses his patience with his children.You are a guy that messes up, that says the wrong thing to the person in the studio, that lets his ego get ahead of him.Why would you put out an album encouraging people to be a better father?You're not the father you need to be now.And I was like, oh, that's why I need to make this cuz I need to tell myself that no matter where I'm at, I can be better.So, if there's any fathers,
if there's any fathers that
don't even think that they're capable of being better, if this could be like an espresso shot for you in the morning, that gives me a lot of purpose when I wake up in the morning.If the numbers are great and the tour sells out and the whatever, whatever, it's like, I don't know, great.I'm already rich.I don't it's like it's not like it's a financial yay I don't have to be like broke anymore.It's not that.So if I do see that people are affected within the family structure in the family unit that would be that would be great.Yeah.But am I the I'm not the like leader of the like you know what I mean?Like I'm not like the the this album's really it's it's to encourage myself.But I know if I'm honest with myself and I'm encouraging myself, then by auxiliary, someone will be encouraged as well.
Because I'm not prescribing a life for anybody.I'm just this I listen back to and it juices me the up cuz that's how I feel about how I want to chase after my family and my life.Yeah.I guess the title being father figure, what does being a father figure mean to you then?That's the whole record.That's thewhat is the figure of a father now?Like I won't say a lot of men.Like I'm not a like I'm not going to have a TED talk about like it's just not I just make the songs.Um but I will say I can't speak for culture but I can speak for myself.And what I find is that there's just not a lot of
There's a lot of the world reminding everyone how much of a piece of they are.We've done that pretty well.And there's a lot of I'm so spectacular, you should come and live a life like mine cuz I do what I want when I want.There's not a ton of like
cut the grass, go to work who may have regrets in his life and is struggling to be present with his kids because he just wants to go have that drink at the bar or that guy.
It's tough for me to find the espresso shot for that guy.Yeah, because I think we've threw the baby out with the bathwater in the struggle for masculinity.What is a dad?What isn't a dad?Correcting the injustices of and and you end up being like, "So then what the is my purpose?"It's like if we were like tilling the land at what point and then the food went to the supermarket and then the food gets delivered to the door and we're just in an air conditioned house being safe inluxury.It's like you kind of have this existential dread that we're all pretending is not there currently like in America.And by the way, I'm not some I don't need to go have a conversation with Jordan Peterson about like the masculine culture and then someone's opposing view on it.I'm not making any claims.
I'm just like making an album.ButI walked away for many years and I've been around a lot of guys when I left LA.A lot of the guys, a lot of just like the guys who are just like, I don't know if I'm left, I don't know if I'm right.I just like trying to take care of my kids and my job is a struggle and I'm tired and paying my bills is tough.I don't need to be the Martin Luther King of those guys.I'm just
that feels like the market could could we could we could provide something for them.Yeah.What is a father figure?That's the struggle.That's what the album is, right?It's a tantrum.It's a tantrum of me trying to figure that out.Yeah.A lot of the a lot of the singles that we've dropped, Wash, Horoscope, even Why, those are really the only chill records like on the album, the album gets wild.It's like it gets into this beat your chest gorilla dad crazy energy.And then you said Hand to God was your favorite outro.The outro on the album actually is the opposite of all my other outros.It's the most singular naked two instruments.It's the opposite of every other outro I've ever done on a record.Sick.Yeah.But like the point is being is like there's a song called father figure on the album father figure and I'm saying like I'm talking to myself like it's this negative selft talk but I'm also thanking my dad for
the things that he's given to me to bring to my kids and I'm talking about protecting my kids and how do I protect my kids and look at you trying to make a song about protecting your kids.It's all in the same song.So the struggle to fit into the figure of a father.Yes.What is a father figure?I don't know but maybe this album can get me a step closer to figuring that out.That's the longest answer ever.It's probably something that you'll tackle for or like try to figure out for the rest of your life.That's what it is, right?It's ever evolving just like music.Yep.And I have this weird I talk about it in therapy a lot.Me and my wife joke about it.I have this weird dual life that's very odd.It's like I'm like constantly pretending that I'm normal, but I am.
But I've like forced normaly.So the normaly is kind of like like punched into my life and I've like like stranghole holded on to being normal.But there's also this like Lou picks me up in the morning and I go do Kirk Franklin, the Jonas Brothers on Saturday Night Live and then like I'm sitting in traffic on the way home to go clean diapers.It's it's like an odd duality.It's a very weird duality.Yeah.So I'm I'm still like you said figuring out for the rest of my life.I'll be figuring this out for the rest of my life.
John explains the concept behind Father Figure, including the tension between humanity and vanity, and why the album is really a personal struggle to become a better father. He also discusses the duality of his life, his evolving sound, and how he works with other artists now.
I'm not really sure.I'm still not really sure.One of the things that I love about your music though is like you've written songs that I love and also some of the biggest hits, but like your music itself is really interesting because I was like I wasrelisting to your songs while I was working out in your amazing home gym.Um, I was I was listening to your songs and I noticed that like okay, Hand of God and like The Human Condition, incredible album is this like pop cinematic masterpiece that feels very consumable for like anyone to listento.And during that time, it feels like you did interview after interview after interview after interview and like people were like asking you, as you said, like the same 10 questions every single time.I was listening to all of them and I was like I would get tired of this too.
Like I understand like it and also probably touring at the same time it probably just felt like such a thing over and over and over again.And I at the time I I even saw like you had the art of all the Pixar movies.Love Pixar.And it seemed like that was like a big thing to be like I want to create like a cinematic experience that anyone can listen to.Um, but then glory sound prep happens and I even I even wrote this down and like like human condition feels like this is like I'm going to prove to the world what I can do.But then glory sound prep feels like I've already shown you that here's who I am.Yes.Or or the deconstruction of whatever the human condition thing was.Like you're watching it kind of like unfold in real time.Yeah.
Absolutely.That's a great that's Yeah, for sure.That was the intention.I mean the first that I think it was the within the first two hours of dropping Glory Sound Prep that morning I was trending in Nigeria that like this was the worst album ever made and I was washedup and the whole thing.Yeah, switching sound switching your sound will I've noticed is just through the gate everyone hates it and then when you switch the sound again they have euphoric recall from 6 years prior and they're like this is also terriblebut this thing from 6 years ago was great.That's I dropped the GSP.They're like, "It's it's not human condition."And now I'm dropping the singles for Father Figure and they're all like, "Well, Glory Prep had a feel to it that I just wish the funky beats, man."It's like, bro, it was six almost seven years ago.
What are we talking about?Like if I wasn't growing like people are still comparing me to certain artists and I haven't put out music in like six years, seven years.Like what are we talking about?But I think after this album drops that that is going to be night night.But it also feels like you've always had this like this belief in yourself where everyone was almost like against the music.Like did people believe in the human condition an alltime low when you were first I know not at all really.Yeah.They told me that the cover was uh like I had to go into a label meeting and they had to sit me down to tell me that the cover was was just like plain stupid.Like this cover is just dumb.Like you shouldn't liken yourself to Disney.Like what are you trying to do?
And I'm like, "Yeah, but it's like round and and the sounds are very colorful and it's it's new and it's bright and it's like this is exactly what I should liken myself to."And they were just like, "Why don't literally him as my witness, somebody was like, "Why don't you put like gum on someone's shoe on the street?"And I asked them, I said, "Do you know about my other album covers?"And they were I'm like, "Name me what one of my album covers looked like."And they were like, "Oh, I don't know your other album covers."I'm like, "Okay, I'm not listening to anybody in this building for the rest of all eternity."But yeah.Did they believe in alltime low as like a single?No.Not until not until we were on tour and the tickets started going upside down and then radio promoters started getting invited through the label to the shows and then they were just like, "Okay, people apparently like this."
Like, "Let's try it."And then the song, I think, just kind of like exploded.And then it had that double life, triple life.Every two or three years, some younger generation like grabs it and then puts it in something, Fortnite or whatever the Um, yeah.So, no, they don't believe in it.But, but that is a testament to like if the song works 10 years later, I'm always thinking or trying to think that way.It's evergreen.Yes.And and it's I'm always trying to forecast the future so that when it gets put up against anything that comes out for the continuation of the 3 years, it will always like stand the test of time against whatever'shappening.And so when you first drop it, people look at it and they say cuz people don't know how to they didn't know how to look at the human condition.
I don't think they knew even what how to look at it like this is what the is even being presented to me and like and then in like each year the culture kind of moves itself toward that directionand then you start to favorably look at the thing you were confused by 3 years prior.And I've noticed that that's just what gets me out of bed in the morning.So, I'm always going to make some I'm frustrated about because I'm always like, "How do people not hear that this is XYZ?"Because out the gate, people are always like, especially with my I don't know why people are always like, "His last grew on me, but this sucks."It's like it's always that same I feel like you need time maybe like to sit with something.What are we talking about here, bro?Yeah.In the age of 24-hour reviewers or the kid that wants to be the funniest comment, negative or positive, that's the top comment.
And then kids who have no opinions cuz they're 14 and have no idea what's going on are going to like comment on the comment to be the one that has the top comment of the comment.And then a narrative springs forth in culture about a song that people don't even believe what the top comment was.They just know that that's what most people think.These narratives, they take control.And I think the public has had a I'm not going to even go down that road.Never mind.I was about to go full burn the house down.But to answer your question, what was your question?I'm talking so much.We have to edit this.Whatever this is, just throwing that out into the world.Well, um, it was pretty much like, did people believe an all-time low in the human condition was the start of it.
And it sounds like people didn't in the building in the making the cannon to shoot the shot and to load the cannon up to have the support to try to make it go.People did not believe.No, not at all.Everyone was kind of like, we don't even understand what this is.Which, by the way, you can't necessarily blame him.I was trying to make something super inspiring or futuristic for writers and producers.Yeah, it was it's it's a fun song.The whole vibe is really great.For anyone out there who hasn't listened to the human condition, um I always do this one thing with friends or family.I do this every single time.I'm like, "Have you heard of John Bellian?"And if they haven't, I go, "Okay, here's the suggestion."If you're in an hour ride, car ride, always a car ride, you start and you play the human condition from top to bottom.
And you just kind of say like just pay attention to the choruses throughout.And then when you get to Hand of God, it's incred.It's like, so I come from like the Broadway world, too.I grew up doing Broadway and it feels like a medley.I love that.What's your What's your all-time favorite Broadway uh show?Yeah.Book of Mormon.That's just like like I just Yeah.But like um Do you have plans for Broadway?I did like a lot of shows as a kid.So I was like in um I was Gro in like lay miz.Yeah.Like I had a British accent and everything.Climbed up a ladder.Um, as your platform grows, would you ever want to have an opportunity to like jump into to like jumping on stage and doing something like on Broadway?I mean, yeah, for sure.I Okay, I have this dream.
Are you a fan of How I Met Your Mother at all?Anyway, I've seen it.So, there's like this there's this famous thing where uh Neil Patrick Harris and Jason Seagull um sing the confrontation song.And I've always wanted to interview both of them and then like try to do a thing where we get them to sing the confrontation song again on the Tony's.And like that's like one of my dreams in life to make happen.It's just something super random that I'd love to do.Do you have like a like a a passion in your heart to be singing on stage to to be inside of the show?Like cuz you said you were into Broadway.Were you more of like an enjoyer of it or like creatively you loved being on stage and like participating in like high school things and Yeah.Yeah, it was definitely like being a part and like being on stage was a big thing for me.
And like as I've like continued to like getting more involved in doing it again, it's just like working with vocal coaches and having to like treat your voice a certain way.It feels like so much work.Um, and I'm just trying to figure out, I guess, what's right for me and how to keep music alive in my life cuz I started out as like a songwriter, producer, then Yeah.Yeah.What kind of music were you doing?Uh, like indie pop.I want You should play me some We could do it after this one's about you.No, dude.I'm like fascinated.You know what's cool is that you is has you have you been interviewing people and keeping that alive through these interviews and just being next to to music and talking with writers and producers and stuff.Has that kept that alive for you or do you miss some of the hands-on creative stuff?
No, I I I this is fascinating.He He was playing me a bunch of clips that I cuz I don't have like TikTok or anything on my phone.So he interviewhim.So they just sent me a bunch of links of you talking whatever.I was like he's like super knowledgeable enough to I'm like I wonder if he was ever a producer.So do you do you love is there any piece of you now that's like I'd love to get in a session with one of these guys or like whatever.Yeah, 100%.I love that you're honest about that.I love that.Okay.I I've talked about parlay you blowing Ryan Ted's Tik Tok up overnight or whatever.You could probably parlay a session with the Like just just call him.I feel like here here's the truth though.Like I feel like that's something I'd love to do but like this is going to sound crazy.
I don't I feel like a like real imposter syndrome with it cuz like I got into these rooms not by like writing not by writing but by like dude we're all imposters.We have no idea what the is going on.Like you have just as much of a right to be in a room given your success on creating pieces of content and whatever.Why do you say that?The are we all?I don't like like what do you got to do?Like slave over a song in a basement for 15 years before like people are like did you did you slave enough?Come on in.Write this song.Like you might be able to write a great song just being around and having the taste that you do of hitmakers and producers and what I'm a guy that's just like why not?It could definitely happen.
You know what I mean?Um, I appreciate you saying that.No, absolutely.I think it's just interesting to see.If you believe in me, then like I should believe in me.Oh, bro.Yeah, I believe in you to say the least.Yeah, I definitely do.I think your perspective is just interesting.All the clips that I saw you talk about, you have a deep knowledge of production and writing.So, it'd be interesting to see you even just like take a stab at it at least.That'd be great.Why not?Yeah, it's interesting.I I to answer your question, I feel like I was and then for six months I haven't been cuz it's just if it makes sense like when I have been I was creating music alone for so long.Yeah, I get the feeling.Yep.Like when I started making music with others, it like like brought a light back if that makes sense.
Oh, absolutely.I don't work alone ever anymore.I don't I don't do alone unless there's like a topline song's done and I just hop in the basement and help somebody out and send it back to them.I'm never creating from scratch alone.I did that a lot first 10 years of my career.But it's not fun.It's not fun for me anymore.It's like the human thing is great.That's why co killed me.Like these Zoom sessions I was just like not working out.Did you do them at all?Like the Zoom sessions?I'm trying to think what got cut out of the Zoom We did one with Bieber and Miley.They both recorded a song and it never came out.But I think that's the only song that I really worked on.I feel like you're like you being in the room like adds so much.
Oh, for sure.For sure.For sure.The energy.Some some producers can sell salt to a slug.It's like you you got to be, you know what I mean?Like you got to Being in person is very advantageous.For sure.Yeah.Yeah.I've gotten a ton of cuts just from cold sending songs to artists on their phone.Here's an MP3.They hit me up, call me.What the is this?I'm gonna cut this tomorrow.That's happened 80% of the songs that have ever gone number one for me.But I do enjoy getting in the room with the artists.Do you still like make songs like as like a songwriting powerhouse team and then present them to artists?Like does that happen a lot or is like artists mostly making songs for like with you now like exclusively?In my career now at this point I'm being sought out by the artists.
We're getting together and it's a way deeper.It Yeah.Lately, the last probably year of my career has been more of like Camila coming with her mom to stay on the property.You know what I mean?Yeah.To hang out, eat food and and talk and see where we want to go direction wise.um or the Jonas Brothers contacting me and being like we just want to go for it.You you what would you do if you were a fan of us and blah blah blah like you have more of an opportunity to get with them.Um so yeah, more more of recent I've been with the artists.I've said it on a bunch of podcasts.We live in an age too where all the biggest guys got their people.Yeah.Taylor's got Desner Billy's got you know uh Phineas Dan Olivia.Dan Olivia.There you go.
It's like, would all the producers and writers submit songs and be like, "You think Olivia would be great for this?"And everyone's like, "Yeah, she'd probably sound great singing this, but like she's going to want to write about her experience because she's so talented."Especially when the artist is a great songwriter like Olivia or Taylor or just like generational level songwriters of whatever and Billy like all like ridiculous.You can't even be mad at that.It's like you got to let them do what they got to do.
He talks about learning from other great musicians, the value of being around stronger collaborators, and why he rejects the idea that artists must write everything alone. The discussion becomes a broader defense of teamwork, taste, and making the best possible record.
Over the last few years, I've sat down with some of the greatest minds in all of music, and they've told me stories and given me some of the best tips that changed my entire perspective on creating.And I'm looking to give that to you because I'm hoping that it can help you just as much as it helped me.My goal with Behind the Wall is to shine a light on the people stories behind music, movies, and media.It's to inspire the next generation of creatives, but it's also to create the platform that I wish I had when I first started making music, when I first started being creative, when I first started making videos.Behind the Wall has taught me so much on this journey and I want to take these lessons that I've learned and help the next generation.So I put together 15 of the most important and impactful lessons that I've learned on my own journey from these people directly from some of the greatest minds in all of music.
People like Chris Martin of Coldplay, Benny Blanco, Ryan Tedar, Julia Michaels, Amy Allen, Bonnie McKe, Saveta.So many of the greatest minds in all of music.People that I had the pleasure and privilege of interviewing.People like Ryan Tedar who gave me one of the greatest pieces of advice that helped me on my own journey.People like Benny Blanco who changed my entire perspective 6 years into making music.People like Marshmallow who taught me that as long as something sounds good to you, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.And I'm looking to pass this knowledge on to you which will be 15 lessons from the greatest minds in music which will be in the description completely for free.Check it out in the description below.And now let's return to John Bellian.I I love I love the the the tangent away.Um I'm just in I'm very very fascinated that you you represent this new opportunity for people to be an arbiter of culture.
It's just very very very very interesting.And to have the way your mind works, however it's worked, you've gotten to a place where you're having conversations with people that are tough to have conversations with.So if you were ever to try music and producing, it could be very very interesting now at this level.You know what I mean?Like you're just an interesting cat.I feel like you'd be a creative force to some degree.I mean that.I really appreciate that.Like the perspective might come in differently.Like what?Yeah.Yeah.And you're grabbing nuggets from the top 10 guy.You know what I mean?Like in the world.You know what I mean?It's like it's a whole other thing.And like it's interesting cuz a lot of I mean honestly I'm not going to say who, but like some like the biggest record labels were saying like we didn't know people even cared about this stuff until we started
seeing your videos perspective on it.Yeah.Or even like like talking to the people.Um, I feel like I come with just like curiosity about the industry, which is great.Yes.Like I really care and I like spend so much time like like for I I just get very like obsessive with the things that I want to know about and like diving in every single time and always whatends up happening is the conversation goes in a completely different way than I ever expected.I love that.Like right now.Yeah.Curiosity is leading you to something that was new that you were like, "Oh I love the way this."Yeah, absolutely.So like even uh earlier when I talked about uh your even albums with Hand of God and the the medley vibe we get to the ending and anyone I've showed that song to immediately has like connected and loved
that song when they listen to it all together.Also, one of the people that I had the pleasure of chatting with was Alec Benjamin.And we on New York Soul.Yeah, exactly.And one of the fun things he said is he said that he doesn't even really know what the lyrics were, but he like made it cuz it was like the vibe when you guys recorded it down that likeHand of God song.What caused you to make such like a medley cinematic Broadway like meets a capella vibe for that to bring everything together?
That whole record is just wildly ambitious.There's just a lot of like leaps taking.And I think at that point in my life, it was very just like why not get 40 person and get the Michael Jackson choir to come in and record them and do the thing.But you also I'm surrounded by really really talented people like Mark Williams of OG Volta and and Volulta.Like they were they were right-hand mans throughout a lot of that and the the ending process of that album.They came in on really big chunks on Glory Sound Prep.But that's Mark Williams charting out the the way it comes in and whatever.And I'm just kind of presenting the the idea.But like Steve Jobs ain't making the iPhone alone.You know what I mean?Like there just like a lot of talented people around me.I think I think a lot of times in my life I look around and I say, "Thank God I've somehow ended up in this random group of people to get this idea across the table."
Cuz I I'm not it's not 100% me.Like it's not even close.So that's not like Travis Mendes, Sheldon Ray, um,Mark Williams, Raul, Kabina, like myself down to the union guy who got lunch for the choir that day.It's like this just it just ended up happening.I don't know.It's good I like if if I find that when I'm around really talented people that are like more talented than me, I end up winning.So, I just try to be around people that are more talented than I am.So, to answer your question, honestly, it's just like I had I I got cold around me all the time that make me a lot better.So, yeah.Yeah.It's interesting cuz like there were times though in your career when you were like 100%ing songs like trumpets.Yeah.Uh which I love that record by the way.
As a kid, I remember listening to it on the radio.Every time it would come on, I'd be like, "This song's so fun."And then I find out years later I'm like, "Oh, that's fun."Yeah.Um, but like it's interesting because I think in today's society nowadays, like people didn't know for the longest time that there were songwriters, that there were producers, that there were people making songs for artists.And I I feel like there's like been this slow, not slow, but like perception that like if an artist isn't writing their songs, they're less of an artist.It's ridiculous.It's a ridiculous statement.Yeah.Like to make movies, you have a whole team of people.And like when it comes to music, and I was talking to someone else, um, someone else I interviewed, vocal coach Stevie Mackey, and he was saying like in in Europe culture, DJs and like people writing songs for others
is very accepted, but in like the American and US culture, it's like artists shouldn't be having people writing songs with them.Like, what's your thoughts on that?It's it's it's a it's a more macro um
it's it's a very like curtain thing.It's very like behind the curtain.It's very Wizard of Oz.Like in in our industry, there's like this, you know, like sometimes the artist doesn't want people to find out that they didn't really write much on the song cuz they want to come across a certain way because they'rein control of their brand and they can't have people finding out that that's true.or managers argue over percentages and mud gets slung and people threaten each other and then you don't want that to be.So then everybody kind of just like clams up and we're like here in our insulated bubble working and then people on the outside are just like saying ignorant stupid about their assumptions of what that is.Likeif there's a drum guy better than me and I've made drums for the day and then someone tells me that there's Jimmy in Germany makes better drums than I do and I listen to his drums and I say,
"Oh, his taste and approach is better than my drums."I'm calling Jimmy from Germany to come in and work on the drums.And if those drums inspire my topline, I'm making him a writer on the song.Is Jimmy a hit topliner and deserves to is my management sometimes like why are you giving percentages to all these guys and blah blah blah blah.It's like what the does it matter if you're enjoying the thing?I've never understood that.Like I don't know.All right, go do everything yourself.Like okay, like okay, if that's if that's your rule, go you you go make an album yourself.Set up the drums, mic it up, record the yourself.Don't get an engineer.Don't get the best drum guys in the world.Don't get somebody who creates better harmonies than you or more of a musical genius than you to come in and create something to create an experience for somebody.
Like, who the has ever listened to a song and been like, "Wow, I love this shit."Uh, how many people wrote it?It's like, okay, if all of America wrote the song and there's 3 million writers on the but it gives you goosebumps and changes your life.Yeah.What are you even talk?I see all these writers.Such a simple song, right?Yeah, maybe I I took the loop from some random kid who's never made a dime in his life and I like that one little loop.And it's like, let me put your name on a huge song to change your life to go get you a publishing deal with a bigger advance than I ever got when I was 19.It's like who I that's just like hottake.I don't like whatever.I don't know.It's just like the the amount of people that are on a song.
And Rihanna's considered one of the greatest artists of all time.She doesn't she barely writes anything.Why?because she's the most genius level A&R ever.The way she picks songs changes culture.The whole same thing with Bieber.Same thing with So what do you like?What are you Well, we want to make sure that the experience is from you.It's like, have you ever listened to a song and related it to your life?Maybe there's a chance that a writer could write a song and an artist can hear a song and be like, "That reminds me of my marriage.That reminds me of my loss, my my failure, my success, my whatever."It's like what are you I I think it's a it's like a um a highbrow way to be like look how many writers and the song's this bad like top comment like congrats dude like I don't know I
think I'm just I'm speaking from a place of like I'm just trying to make the best thing like every day and I keep checking to the side and people are like look at all the writers.I'm like what the does that Okay, back to the drawing board.Like let's all 20 of us write a song because we can make the best thing in the world.Yeah.It's like if I couldn't make the if somebody were to tell me that putting 20 writers on a song would make it 10 times better and affect 10 times more people, I would put 20 writers on the song.But if someone were to tell me, "Wait, wait, John, make it a little less good, but make more money cuz you have 100% of the song."Like trumpets.Just do that every time.It's like, bro, it's like, I'm not capable of I'm capable of making trumpets over and over again because I did 100% of that myself.
I'm not capable of making Don't Shoot the Boy Down or Get It Right or Father Figure.I'm not capable of making those songs alone.There's no way.And maybe I'm not as I'm not talented enough to do all those things at once.Like, okay, fine.Like, I'll admit I'm not the most talented guy in the world.I need 25 people in the room for me to treat them to get their tapestries and and put this entire thing together.Most talented people together to like make the best product you can.That's Quincy.40 people worked on Thriller.It's just that people weren't considered writers back then.Now people are scrging for money and whatever.They could do it based on you want to get publishing on the song.I'm like, "All right, whatever."It's like, cool.I wrote 100% of the song, but if you want to get publishing for doing a baseline, great.
But like that's Quincy.That's Forel.Every time I go to Paris, Fel is like producing people and and happily, and people love being around him and his energy.I guess I I guess my frustration comes from the idea of like, we're here to make the world better.We're not here to We're here to get the win.I don't give a if someone scores more points than me.Like, what are we talking about?It's about the W.It's about the ring.It's like that's just my take on it.Yes.
John describes meeting and working with Pharrell and other heroes from his youth, and how intimidating but inspiring those sessions were. He then returns to the idea that success requires being willing to look stupid and strike out repeatedly.
Speaking of Farel, he's someone you like listened to a lot as a kid and like looked up to him obsessively.Yeah.Yep.What was it like working in the room with him?And was that like nerve-wracking when when you were about to do it or was it like I'm I've just been doing this so often that it's like First time he asked me to go out there cuz he heardthe whatever he was listening to at the time was the Jones Brothers stuff or whatever.First time I got out there, I was definitely nervous.And I rarely am nervous because there's not many people that I've like, you are the reason.I was like, I want to do that.You can't be me.I'm a rockstar.I'm ramen on the top of a cop car.I'm a rebel.It's almost over.I was 14.Like, what the is this?
Like, it was just a I was like, wait, is he like in skate culture and he's a biker, but he's around the rappers and he's around the gangsters, but he's like a skateboard kid.This is cool.Like, it was like too much for me to handle.So guys like Timberland or me being like Nelly Fittado say it right and you hear thoseI was like what the Like I didn't even know music could sound that way.So when you get in front of those types of guys you I it's hard for me not to be like oh my god you're like to gush to some degree.Yeah for sure.Did you hold it in like the first time or No, I told right to his face.I was like I just want to clear the air right now.You could ask everybody in the room.
I was like, you are the reason for the season and you're the reason I started doing music.I love it.Okay, now let's work.It's just complete honesty with you.Yeah.I mean, you try to be, but yeah, Tim, for Death, Cab, Band of Horses, like there's just certain people that if I ever got around, I I would feel some type of way cuz they've shaped my life.Music means a lot to me.So, yeah.And like, but I'm guessing that those guys are just so great at what they do that they probably just made you feel comfortable like right away also.Sure.There's also with Forel.I can't even explain it.It's like watching him.
I can't even explain it.He's under Teddy Riley.They consider Teddy Riley the producer of all producers.That forel says that.It's like so I don't even I I'd love to have a conversation with Teddy Riley.But he's he's just
like a very singular vision.super confident and not afraid to just strike out.And that's just the most admirable thing I would say about him is you realize that he he seems like someone who's not attached to the outcome.He's attached to the process of what it could potentially be if it does work culturally.When Forel misses, he misses.When he hits, when he hits, it changes the world.Yeah.And that almost is something I've learned about that.Like you want to swing.Like you want to swing.If I'm going to give Rihanna a song, it's going to be a jam90s Chicago house basement rave thing attached to the Smurfs movie to make people be like, "What the is this shit?"Cuz if it works, it changes.If you strike out, you look like an idiot.But if you win, you win.It's just, are you okay with striking out?
That's the real question.To me, I would honestly say to any young writer and producer, just pop into my brain now, to the degree you're willing to look silly by striking out is the degree you'll be successful.For sure.I just think culturally now, it's just way more dicey to put yourself out there cuz it's very easy to just get on.Yeah.It's like people just love like coming home from their 9 to5 and recording themselves doing a parody of the song you put out for it to go viral to then make you feel like for even trying in thefirst place, which is like brave.Very brave.But to the degree in which you're okay with looking like an is is to the degree you'll be successful, 90% of people are just too afraid to look like an So 90% of people don't even try.
Yeah.Afraid to look silly.Yeah.One of the things that like one of the songs that you made that really connected I just want to say this real quick was Okay.It seems like the vocals that you record are like so specific in the way that you pronounce things and the way that you sing things.Uh, and it seems like everything is exactly the way it's supposed to be.Like everything feels like this is John Bellian approved until Yeah.stupid deep.Yeah.And I feel as if like when you got to that final chorus, it was very vulnerable.It was very real.It was very just like a release of all the emotions that probably had been building up at that time.Was that a difficult song to release and to let go of at the time?
Yeah.I mean, it's like you always have those butterflies or that thing that was like when you're in the room and you're so confident, there's always that moment of a little bit down the road, 7 months after you it'sabout to come out and it's about to come out in an hour and you start to review all the things.I was really confident about that.But what if that's the thing that people hate about the song?And what if people don't realize that I'm I'm counterculturally doing a thing on horoscope and what if they don't realize I'm and then it comes out and the chips fall where they fall.So yeah, it is always hard to put out anything out into the world.Like the the win comes from you just put like doing the thing and putting it out and risking this looking like an because if you strike out, you're a If you crank that grand slam, you're like in the
Hall of Fame forever.People don't tend to People pick at the failure and they eat on the failure and they remind you of the failure, but they're not thinking about you as much as you think they are.Even if you're the Even if you're the laughingtock of the musical community, people aren't really thinking about you that much.So, keep doing what the you're doing cuz you're just going to beat the out of them with just trying.Trying.It's like, what an He struck out 150 times last season.What an He struck out 130 times last season.What's he in the batting cage?What an He struck out 110 times.You know, he only struck out 80 times this year.Yeah, he's been in this game long enough.Yo, he cranked four homers last night.Welcome to the World Series.Jiminy's up.Home run.He's a hero.
What a talent.It's like you were an for my first 150 strikeouts.It's like don't give a about them the strikeout.I'm talking to creative people.Yeah, creative people.You you don't you got the iPhone in you.I've been wrong.I've been wrong about hits and I've had multiple global number ones and I've been wrong.I've told people I don't like that song.I don't think it's going to work.And I've been wrong.Like wrong.Flat out.will convince you like they're Nostradamus.Like they know hits to get business from you.I don't know.And if I don't know, you don't know.So if nobody knows, like strike the out.Strike the out.And I mean strike out.I mean like bases loaded.The whole town's and the girl in the back's ready to marry you if you hit the home run.And you strike the out.
Cuz when you strike out, you develop a different type of armor.You're like, I've struck out already.I've already struck out.If I strike out again, I already know the pain.What the pain feels like.The issue is when you don't swing and the hits the catcher mitt and you're like you're out and for the rest of your life you're What was the difference?I didn't swing and I lost.I could have at least swung cuz maybe I would have hit the And everyone's a until you connect.Second the bat pops.You're a You're like what a what a generational talent.Yep.It's insane.Sorry that was really longwinded.I apologize.I just I like it's so important for like bro could you imagine like I was 14 making beats.Yeah.I was 16 making beats in high school going to like playing songs with my friends and they come in and record it and there was no internet literally date myself.
Whatever the I couldn't imagine being like 15 and like making a song and putting on the internet and then like some kid in school who hates it, who doesn't like you, is leaving a comment on the bottom foryou to then be like, "Now you're a politician at 16 years old trying to like preserve your image."Yeah.Oh my god.I couldn't imagine what that's like for for young creatives now.Let alone like there's no there's no room for forthe bravest right now is like saying what you actually think creatively and striking out and going for it.Nothing braver.Well, miss out of brave people running into burning buildings and curing cancer, but like it's it's it's very hard to do.Very hard to do.I've noticed also like people tend to not remember the strikeouts as much as the home runs.Totally.Like Ross Colin and the writer race you saying success has many fathers.
Failure has failure has none.It's like everyone sticks by the when it wins everyone's like I always knew but if the don't work nobody nobody likes you.And by the way they're only around you because you you hit the home run.So when you do strike out a lot and then you finally hit the home run and someone says let's hang out man like you're the you go you weren't around when I wasn't hitting home runs.So you you can kind of actually wade through the when you fail.When you fail, you have a a way greater knowledge.I feel bad for guys who came up and hit it quick because they're shot out to space in a way that you have to kind of orient yourself in a sea of dishonesty because you're a cash cow.Like that's got to suck is to be genius and hit the grand slam on your first at bat because then people are kind of expecting that.
There's something of a blessing that comes from repeated failure because by the time you win, you can put the success in the proper perspective or at least try to.Were there a lot of songs that were quote unquote I want to say quote unquote failures before the monster connected from you that you were writing?Every song I ever made was a failure before the monster had Yeah.Yeah.everyit only took me a few months by the time I got a publishing deal to get in the right room to write the right song.And by that time, I had already written for fun throughout college and high school thousands of songs.So, I kind of got shot into the industry way ahead of everybody cuz my parents got me a microphone, a keyboard, and a computer when I was 12, 13.I was making full-blown like I want to try to sing the song.
Then I was producing records for my friends in high school.Then I was producing throughout college.So I think by the time I got my publishing deal, I was already like very far ahead of of people who just wrote or just produced or just did vocal production.I was doing all of that myself.Not because I was super talented.I just did it every day and eventually got pretty good at it.Yeah.So I didn't have a really long stretch of failure.But guys like the Monsters and Strangers, Stephan Book, it was 10 years before their first Billboard number one.10 years.They were in my Ungrateful Eyes video wearing masks.They're the guys in the mask in the video and that song like this song's making me cringe.Like I like looking at at an old picture.But 10 years they're looked at as some of the biggest producers in the world now.
Yeah.Those guys have been my homies for it took them 10 years to get the number one.10 years.Are you willing to look stupid for 10 years?
He expands on repeated failure, the fear of public judgment, and how modern creatives are pressured by virality and online commentary. John argues that real growth comes from swinging anyway and not letting public reaction define the work.
That's the question.The question is not if you're good enough.The question is if you're willing to keep swinging no matter how many people tell you you can't swing or you shouldn't swing or you can't be this way or it won't be successful for you.Those guys, look at the Monsters and Stranger, man.Look at their discoraphy and how many hits they've consistently had.10 years, bro.be like, "It's not working out.It took me a year and I'm going back to this is stupid."It's like, well, there's people out there that are going to run on that treadmill for for a decade.Yeah.Most successful people are just the ones that didn't stop.Seems like 120%.And aren't afraid of the of the response of of failing.I also want to say you said earlier, you said sorry for going on a tangent, but you know, I really wanted to have this conversation with you because I feel like people in the creative industry aren't talking about
this and in the industry that we are, I'm just like seeing all these kids who like not are just in music, but like as YouTubers like so attached to virality and views as like self-worth.Yep.And like I've even run into that too.And like I'm trying to figure that out personally.So like like hit hit records are virality.You know what I'm saying?We're all chasing that popular hit.Yeah.You know what I'm saying?Like that hit of rush of response.You know what I mean?Like Yeah.I don't know how to combat it though cuz our if the attention span drops then music is almost just is is one stem of the overall thing that keeps you engaged.Now it's like you don't just make the song, you make the moment of the story behind the song.to play the song.Played the song for my grandmother.
This is her reaction.Now I have to set up the camera and make sure my grandma walks in the room to be really shocked and cry and make sure that the camera zooms in on her teardrop when it goes down her face.Viral, viral, viral.14-year-olds are like, "What a great song."And the radio's like, "I don't know.Just play that.Seems like everyone's listening to that.I don't know.I don't know how to combat that."Or if I'm a dinosaur.If you've ever resonated with the stories, videos, mission of Behind the Wall and want to help support us further, then this message is for you.If you've ever wanted to rep behind the Wall while we are launching merch to the public, I started this series to shine a light on the people and stories behind music, movies, and media.But it was also to build the platform I wish I had when I first started being a creative.
And my hope with Behind the Wall is to inspire the next generation.And now, for the first time ever again, we have launched merch that you could check out.But I've been wearing this merch for years.I wear this hoodie.This is my behind-the-wall interview hoodie.This has been the hoodie that's been across from so many stories, from so many incredible artists, songwriters, producers.This is the Day One hat.This is the first behind-the-wall merch item that has ever been made.Four years ago, I started wearing this hat.It's been my thinking cap.And this is the mug that I've been drinking coffee out of, as well as hot chocolate at night.Where are we going?Behind the wall.And this jacket is my favorite piece of clothing I've ever owned.I've worn it for some of the most important days of my entire life.
I wore it for the marshmallow interview.I wore it to the Grammys.And I also wore it when one of the biggest dreams of my entire life came true.And that video is officially coming soon.But first, I wasn't looking to put out just merch.I wanted to create something that means something, something that says you create things that matter to you.You care about the process.You care about building something real.Whether you make music, art, podcasts, or videos, and have ever wanted to support what we do here at Behind the Wall, this is the perfect way to do it.So, please check out Behind the Walls first ever live merch for you all in the description below.And I can't wait to continue to go behind the wall with you all.Me personally, I try to stay away from signing things that are viral at the time.
Is it just stuff that you connect with?
Yeah.Like my my stomach tells me that this person is incredible.Like intuition.Like Clyde Lawrence and Gracie Lawrence.Like I'm just like I saw them play one day.I was watching them live and saw this kid Clyde just start going upside down on the piano and I was like this is a generational talent.I'm going to sign these guy.Like I didn't ask the opinion of what the a critic thinks or this thinks or this thing.Like I just will go to my grave being like don't go on after them.Don't if they open up for you be careful.like they are very like they're very they're very talented.Very talented and kept going and will keep going.Yeah.Like the virality thing is I'm not sure.I'm not sure.I I have a gauge of something that I think is timeless and timeless sometimes can break through the matrix to to combat uh virality.
But I've personally never based anything I've done on virality because to try to search to create that type of cultural moment seems like a a job that's beyond my talent level.I'm not smart enough to do that.And it's interesting because like you are creating very genuine music and I think you always have but like I think a lot of people were saying for years like it's interesting for me uh cuz people were like where'sJohn Belliot and for me like it was if you like never disappeared because every time a song would come out I go to the song credits I'd be like there he is he's still going like nice.Yeah.Yeah.Uh you made so many songs.What were those six years like for you in that like writing from 2018, I think?Yeah.I mean, you let when you really decide to let something go, it it's funny how it just comes back into your lap.
Like, it's just crazy.I literally You could ask my wife, you could ask Lou, you could ask anybody.I was just like, "No, I don't I'm not an artist anymore.I don't like my contract.I'm It's pennies on the dollar."And it just makes no sense for me to work so hard to put together and try to change culture and do all this stuff and be like a starving artist just cuz like my contract sucks.Hey, I signed it.I was was 20, whatever at the time, 19, whatever.It's my fault I signed it.I should have just like had a better, more astute lawyer and had access to them in my life at the time or I don't know.But I did sign it.Butthe six years were the were some of the some of the greatest six years of my life because I let it go.
It wasn't like I woke up every morning being like I don't get to, you know, be an artist because I just literally accepted it, like mourned it, grieved it, cried about it, went to therapy about it, and andcontinued on with my life.And by the grace of God, when the hits came, it changed the whole dynamic of my entire life.It's like I was financially fine.I my life is balanced.I learned balance in the last six years.I've and I've gotten around enough celebrities to really take inventory to be like I'm good on this.Very contradictory to get on a podcast to for to clip it to be the guy that people follow to come to the show to be famous.I know that.But like it's definitely a great reminder for me to be like I'm good on that level of whatever the you lost you gave up your life for.
I'm I'm good on it.Because I know a lot of that are like, "If I could if I could go back in the time machine, I'm not sure if I would have not been able to go to the gas station without getting myhead ripped off."When you were writing songs back then, did they come like from your own life?And like cuz I It seems like everyone I talk to, it's songs that really connect are the ones that come from this like very genuine place every time that's going on.And your songs are very specific when you write them.But when you were writing them back then, was it like I'm no longer an artist, so I'm gonna make I'll make this about my life, but I'm going to make it that anyone can sing it.Or is it still coming from that place of like this is me kind of this is John?
It was just it was actually more coming from like whatever the vibe is in the room and calls for that day.It was it was kind of freeing because it's not me.Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.That's not I would never do that.But like it's fun to make it.Yeah.It's like it's it's fun to like to draw a picture of a superhero.I'm not a superhero, but it's fun to imagine what his superpowers are and to to get lost in what that would be for the day.Like, oh, if I was a superhero, I' i'd teleport and I would fly and I and you get to experience what it's like to to be inside that world.And it's like the same thing when I'm writing for other people.Sometimes I have to draw for myself because the artist has a similar life to me or he wants to write a song about his wife.
It's like, oh, if I can make a relatable song about my wife, I want to think about my wife because that's the the muse.You know what I mean?But then other times, it's just I want to be the biggest artist in the world and make me the most smashiest smash addictive math melodic Swedish thing you could possibly do melodically.And sometimes that's my job.
John recounts the years he stepped away from being an artist, why his contract pushed him out, and how he found peace during that period. He explains why the label reversal and renewed creative freedom brought him back to making his own album.
Definitely it definitely differs.Yeah, it's interesting cuz like in the basement uh the only plaque that I saw was that song was seven that was up.I haven't given it to my parents yet.My My parents If you go to my parents house up the road, the house is Wait, you give all your plaques to your parents?Yeah, it's probably not healthy, but I don't like looking at plaques.I don't I don't keep plaques in my house.Yeah, he's got all the other plaques in in his office, but I don't I keep I keep everything.I don't I don't like imagery and stuff I try to stay away from all the time when we're creating.Captain Falcon, Goku, like Mario Kart.Those are my sons.My sons have weasled their way into this room every day and leave behind.That's great.Yeah, absolutely.I love I play N64 once a week with this like super dope group of guys.
They're like my age.They all have kids.So, we'll play Smash Captain Falcon.That's me.I love it.So, okay.You quit music as an artist, but you have now come back as an artist to put out this album.Why did you decide to come back and why now as an artist?Well, when someone calls you after 6 years and says, "The reason you walked away, your contract being so shitty, we would like to completely reverse it cuz hey, I'm a new president of this label.I have no emotional connection to you.I just found out you're on our label.I cannot believe we've shel we've shelled you for this long.you've made so many hits for so many people.We will give you your back kind of thing.Sheld, not sheld.I walked away.It was by my own valition.They they just didn't believe me that I was walking away.
Got it.Like I was kind of like, I just won't make another song unless you switch my Well, you signed the contract.It's like, all right, I just want to make music.And they were like, sure, you just sold out Jones Beach.Like, good luck trying to walk away from that.And I was like, okay.Anyway, 6 years later, they were kind of like, we'll give you your ship back.would you make music if you gave your back?I was like, I don't know.I made a bunch of hits, made a bunch of money, I like my life.I'm pretty locked in.And then for some reason, it washed over me to have product placement.Uh, all these thoughts of possibilities came back cuz the possibility of my brain was so shut down.I was never creatively um like, you know what I mean?Like I was never creatively like working to think about something I could do for my artistry because it was it was I was done cuz I proven my point.
I'm walking away and I'm never doing that again.So I was never like on a plane being like if I was to make a song for myself, what would it be like?It was always like what's the next session?What's the next how can I be a better writer, better server of other artists.So by the time the door got back opened again, I was like oo like that's really interesting.Then the album kind of just flooded out of me.But yeah, it was because they they reversed my But it has been amazing to see how much all the songs have been connecting not only with like your your fan base, but like new fan base is starting toform, bro.And then other other artists I've written for their fans are like favorably being like, "Oh, you don't even know about him.He's a writer.
He writes for a bunch of different people."So then the story, there's like a story that I didn't even think people would care about.I'm like, "Man, I've been out of this for six years.I got my contract for I'm a dad now.People aren't going to give a about that."And then that actually ended up being the thing that made it like kind of unique in a way.Yeah.And because I'm rich, I get to give all the away free to the forum and to the email list to the fans early.So I get to go shoot an expensive video, not short form content, and then put it on a Wii transfer link and send it out 48 hours before the song comes out.So the fans are sharing it on like their group chats with their friends, not trying to look cool culturally on their social media.
So there seems to be like a more integral number growth that there's a ground swell happening that by the time we dropped Why I saw the payback of me spending hundreds of thousand dollars on an Iceland video andsending it out for free.But then by the time we put out the third single, it was like whoa, a lot of people must have got that video sent from the Wii transfer link to their friends for free.So I was like this is a very interesting time to come back for sure.
He describes his fan-first approach, including email lists, free releases, and avoiding fake metrics or purchased streams. The focus is on building a real audience, even if it means rejecting the shiny version of success.
To me it's all Monopoly.I told before we started talking, it's like I am on Monopoly money time.This is all fake to me.I'm on boardwalk.This is great.Like I'm just like if people with this, this is the most me I've ever been on an album for sure.So I love that.Yeah.I guess like hearing more about all of this though, you've always been someone who I feel like has like put your fans first.like the first three mixtapz like no cost like no money like giving and then you've always had that mentality and while everyone is so focused even me so focused on making short form content trying to do social mediatrying to get views you're like no none of that we're going to go directly to you which is what everyone like like pitches with this idea of email list but you're doing it as an artist it yeah well
just like sometimes you take these gut instincts where you're just like okay if you post once on Instagram, it only gets to 3% of your followers.Yeah.3% of of 8 700 whatever how many thousand I have on, let's say, like Instagram or something.3%.So then what's Wait a second.If I send out one email to 100,000 people.Yeah.That would reach then more people than social media.It's like, well, no, no, just post seven times to get to all 750 on social media.It's like, well, I don't want to post all seven times.It's like, well, you're not going to be as big as you want to be, but yeah, you could definitely get a lot of people on that email list.And it's like, oh, I just have to mourn the idea of being uh like I just have to mourn the idea of certain successes that won't come my way.
And then once that's mourned, it's just like, oh, I don't care now.I'm just going to talk directly to the fans.If I get 10 fans every two days and those people are willing to spend $1,000 a year on my product, that's way better than someone who just clicks on a viral video that that is not invested in me.10 fans who are invested in you is worth 10 million fans that will never buy anything from you ever or never even care about what you do.Here's the flavor of the moment.It's like I don't give a It's not as It's not as shiny.Like my my music's shiny.Like I I'll stand on on business with my songs like this album.I'll stand on on on deep business culturally for this for this record that I'm making.That's for sure.But as far as like what it looks like to garner fans and what the fan base looks like and how I interact with them and thank them or get or whatever, that whole like holier than now it's like
miss me with that.Come on.You want to get on the email list and I'll send you some 10 days before it happens.Come on.Like if we can sell out, I'm not going to say any names cuz we still haven't picked a venue for like the one big show I'm going to do.I want to do like one large show.Come one, come all across the country.If you want to get on a plane, get on a plane.is a big boy show.I don't know where.I'm not going to say any names or whatever.But if I can sell that out from an email list with no deal with AEG or Live Nation, it ain't pretty.It ain't shiny.And it might not make me a lot of money, but it at least sparks something in somebody to be like, "Wait a second.
What if I dove into my record, my touring Contra?John did it.Do we have an email list?"Oh, the label won't give you the email list.Why?I don't know.All I'm saying is you should ask for your email list and see if you get it if you're an artist that's signed to a label.Wow.But I'll also say that like you say it may not look pretty.It may not look shiny, but it's real.And like the impact is happening.Like what's incredible right now?This is the crazy thing to even say.The second Y started to move right now.It's like like a thing is happening.I'm getting contacted by these guys and I'm being so serious.is talking about my name is so and so and if you know that song that worked the blank blank song I'm not going to say any name is artist whatever it's not it doesn't have to be like a
like a spicy moment but it's just like what you're supposed to do is supplement the streams with premium accounts that are purchased because they can't trace premium accounts so when we boost your streams then you go into thealgorithm and that's when you make it to viral top 50 dude this is pay to play man like this is what you should be doing the record's working and I'm like tempted to because the song's working and Ihave a real fan base but then I'm I probably shouldn't buy the streams because even if I stream less than someone who has more streams than me, if a 100% of my streams are real, I could probably bankon that better for merch and ticket sales and stuff like that, too.By the way, you got to pay for UGC and users and people doing trends and to get songs to pop off.
Sure, pay a PR firm and we're doing the best we can, but like you said, it's real.Yeah.There's certain things that I'm willing to mourn.There are certain things that I'm willing to mourn.I will not be as popular, not as respected, as well known as whatever.But at least the 100,000 I got are a 100,000 It's not 20,000 that look like 100,000 Like you know how like the Wizard of Oz like you you it seems like it's this really big thing, but then whenyou pull the curtain, it's a sweaty ass on a treadmill.I I'd rather it just be a sweaty ass on a treadmill and someone just knows it's a sweaty ass on a treadmill.Like like let's just not boost the stream.Like and by the grace of God, maybe the streams will just keep going naturally.It seems like it is though.
Like uh the song you just put out with Luke Combmes.I saw that it just hit number four on like Spotify US debut out of out of on Spotify in the US and not a single stream was purchased.Not a It's also the Luke stimulus package.He's like the most talented, one of the most giant exclusive nonfeatured artists in country music.Like he definitely blessed me, but like
4 million streams streamed by humans is just easier to triangulate data in your business rather than 20 million streams that came from four million real humans and 16 million premium purchase accounts.Because you can't trace, what I've learned is you can't trace premium purchase accounts.You can only trace free bot streams.So people can find out that you're streaming if you stream fakeely through free accounts on Spotify.But if you buy premium accounts, they're not allowed to go into the backend information if it's a bot or not.So then all these companies are just like buying premium accounts in aggregate and then the artists are paying for the I shouldn't even I don't even know whatever.It's all good.And by the way, but by the way, that that's kind of like pola on the radio.If you sign a huge deal in the '90s, Tommy Matah went with $2 million to the radio station and was just like, "Yo, play, I don't know, Mariah Carey or some shit."
Like, so maybe this is just the response of Poliola in the new age.You know what I mean?Like maybe this is a new reflection of that.I also feel like it's just the response of like you one being genuine, two being real, three going like right directly to the people like like it seems like so many pre-saves on the album that's coming like wewanted 20,000 pre-saves.We're at 130,000 something pre-saves before on Spotify alone, but those are real people.They're not fake accounts doing it.So I'm just like maybe that'll cause me to lose, but I'd rather like lose doing it that way.And by the way, I want to just really preface.Yeah.Any artist that's like spending their hard-earned money to buy streams to enter the algorithm to give themselves a better chance in a competitive market where everyone's doing that, especially the top dogs, especially the top dogs are doing that.
There's nothing wrong with that.Like, I think you need to get it how you get it.And if you want to have the song at the top of the algorithm and the algorithm responds to streams, everyone's buying them.Everyone's making it seem bigger than it is.So, there's nothing actually wrong with that.I'm just good on it.like I'm just I don't need to be the biggest artist in the world.I want to be heard.I don't necessarily need to be seen.And when people hear the music, that's that's that's all I need.I don't need you to just just hear it one time.And as long as I can get it to you one time, I think it it's good enough to catch you in that way rather than convince you culturally because it looks like something bigger than it really is.
John previews songs from the upcoming record, teases hidden features, and reacts to the production and vocal choices. He explains how the album reflects a more mature sound and how he wants listeners to feel the movement and energy in the music.
I I mean, I love I love I love it.I love the fact that you're going directly to the people.It's like a response to I feel like so we we live in this world where everything is just based on like how many views you can get, how much money you can make, and you're like, "No, I'm goingto go directly to people."And I think it's changing the game.I want to I appreciate that, but I also want to say though, yeah, I'm also able to do this by the grace of God for making hit records for other people because my bank account looks different.I'm able to to shave a bunch of money and give it granted, is it smart for me to burn that much money to give it away for free?I don't know a lot of artists that would want to do that.
Fine.That's I guess uh morally whatever.But it I'm also in a position to experiment with with the beast and the machine because I am my own.I don't have to necessarily play by that rigid the rigidity of the rules of the that's going on.But it also is because I'm in a position to kind of safely do that.I don't know if I morally stand up enough to be like I'd risk all my bank account and the roof over my head to be real for the people.I just have an opportunity to kind of give you like a baby's first science kit of how you could do a different way and some options for you to take.You might not be in the same financial position as me, but at least I can expose the importance of like an email list.Whoa, huzzah.What a what a revelation, but maybe I can help.
So, I think that so far we've touched so great on your history.We've touched amazingly on the business of music.I think so many creatives are going to connect with this a ton.But what we haven't is we haven't talked about the new music really in detail that you're about to put out.And from what I understand, you may want to show some songs today.May not.Well, like Oh, yeah.On some casual I'll play some and we could we could uh if you I wouldn't necessarily play like the the song in its entirety back.If you want to drop some chunks and however you want to chop it up, whatever, but because you hear so much music and you're a music fan, I'm always the guy who's like, "Now, great interview.You want to go listen to some music?Like I just want to play you play you some So I'll definitely play you some There is a um Is my phone dead?
Can you give me um actually you could just play it from your from on the island?Is there any stories that you want to talk about with the songs you've put out thus far?Like from Wash, from Y, from Horoscope, from Kid Again, from Yeah, I love like Wash being one of the first.Kid Again was more to announce that I was coming back, but Wash being one of the first singles and people being like, I don't know about this one out the gate.And to see it so favorably, like over time, people be like, it felt too weird to me.And now that I'm adjusted to it, it's hard for me to even compare that song to what's out on New Music Friday.Like that was it's it's been I'm a little I have a little more armor about it cuz I've done it with every album I've ever put out is making people adjust to a new sound of mine.
But I'm in real time as why is happening.It's fun to have this conversation to be like, I'm really happy that I could mature my sound and people, majority of people be down to go that route with me.I can't make the same twice.If I was still making bubbly, funky bedroom pop young guy it' be kind of like it would almost feel icky to me.It doesn't doesn't feel like who I am.Would you say you're making dad music now?yeah.Yeah.Um, we have a uh this this one is crazy.I want you to try to guess the features.Okay.Yeah.Yeah.I I just want to warn the people, I'm sometimes not very good at this.There's five jeans.One of them is my favorite favorite influencer of all time, but he's doing the intro, and then there's four artists that are laced throughout influ like one of them is an influencer.
He's in the intro.I don't know if you'll be able to name it.That's that's okay.I don't know if you know who he is, but let me know when you're ready.Um, it's called Get It Right.And there's there's five artists that I've decided to just like not reveal.I love I love seeing Farel and Luke Holmes to show the dichconomy of the album and John Batiste like on the as the features, but the the the the list of people that like worked on the song wereso long by the time we put it on the credit list featuring blank blank blank blank blank blank blank I was like this just looks insane.So I was like it might even be fun to like play it for people or when it drops for people to be like is that is this something you're ever going to reveal like who's on it?
Are you going to keep that like a secret?Yeah.No, I I will for sure.I mean, probably like a few like a month or two after, but I think people will know, you know what I mean?The musicality of the album starts to take off after the singles.So, this is like a good representation of where the production's at for like the majority of the record.Some marriage is impossible.
That's one artist.You are the mess I made.I was the game.I was the game you play.new artist there.
New artist.
I remember I was 15.Your sister said I was good, but I never be switch.I know.This is
artist right here.
Thank you for the loyalty.
It's so good.It's so good.I'm so excited to put this this out.Oh man, the production on that's crazy.Thank you.And also, I want to say like like even listening to your songs, you do such a great job at manipulating vocals to the point where I'm like, "Is that someone else?"And then I look it up and I'm like, "Wait, that's John."That's like literally John just like changing his vocals to the point where I like can't even recognize him.Was there Did anything pop out?Any any names that you could identify that you heard?He's like He's like, "Oh, fuck."He gave me the big the big uh the warning before.He's like, "That specifically I suck at.I just want to let you know that I might not be so good.Um well, okay.Can I is no hints, right?I give you I give hints if you want, but I just want to see if you could pick anybody out of the bunch.
Um cuz it'd be funny for people to be like I don't think like if you say it, then people start guessing the features when the album comes out.It's going to be fun.Yeah.If you have any like hints out there or not hints, if you have any like guesses out there, put them in the comments on that record.Um I don't know who the pitched up person is at all.Okay.Um, I would guess someone who's female on the pitch dub.No, I would.See, see, this is why I'm not great at this.Now, I wonder if it's going to be like a blast to have people be guessing who the features are on the record.Um, like a couple names that would stand out like I couldn't tell exactly, but like people that like I heard right potentially right away with someone you work with would be Tori.
I don't know if she's on there or not.Um, I feel like I feel like there were some vibes that gave me a lot of soul like um someone like a John Batiste or like a Teddy Swims.Interesting.Um,
that's that's a great first three.I'm I'm I respect the where who you've picked up to relate those artists with and like to hear your ear catch up on those.Those are great.Like the production on there is crazy though.Like there was there was people think that a lot of the production like like we explained that the sound is changing and there's not a lot of things on this record that like I'm not hiding behind much likeeven just horoscope.It's just me and a piano.So there's more of there's like a crazy synth and like a voice comes in.Thank you.But I think a lot of people will be pleasantly surprised to hear like the fullness of the rest of the records on the they're going to like I'll play I'll play you one more record too if you wantto listen to it.
Well, I'll also say that like it's like when when you're listening to music, you are in it and you're also like movement is seems like it's a very important thing for you when you're listening to music.Yeah.You try to if it if you can like get inside of it and it forces you to feel something.I mean, that's the whole I'm always testing if like I'm if I' if it's unlockable and if it's you can enter it, if it's like accessible, that's a good idea.So, if a song makes you move, that's how you know.Is that is that Yeah.If I find myself completely inside of it like and it's all rushing by me and it it Do you see colors when you like listen to music together or not?Yeah.I always think it's so funny when people like I have sesthesia and I could like see colors.
Yes, I see shapes and colors and whatever but I'm not I bet you like regular people do too.People always make it seem like it's like it's like other thing called sesthesia.It's like some of my boys be smoke weed.That song does sound purple.It's not like it's like can we stop saying like I have perfect picture and I have senesthesia.Um, I could play you one more song.That would be a good way to end it, probably.
The final section features a preview of the title track and a discussion of the video, the album’s emotional purpose, and what he hopes listeners take away. The interview closes with gratitude, encouragement about curiosity, and a final emotional goodbye.
So, this is the next single that's coming.Um, this is called Father Figure.This is like the actual song for the album.
What you want to do down every lonely road and broken avenue?Yeah, I got you.They tell me congratulations.Send an ovation.You build it and that looks just like
you.Wow.Wait to see the video.Video goes video goes nuts.Why do you say that?It's just like I feel like we found the flow by the fourth video cuz I was getting directors and you're paying for it yourself.So, you're seeing the micro of all of it and then by the time we hit this video, I feel like we finally hit this like creative stride that like embodies the album completely.Like when the video drops and you see the imagery behind it, you'll be like, "Now that's they've reached the um sometimes people put albums and it's it's all over the place."I feel like we've pinpointed the energy and the feeling with this video and the song.It finally is like welcome to the album like kind of for sure.I love it.I also want to say like like we're right now we're recording this and we're listening to this before the album drops.
Yeah.I was thinking about it and like what would what would be really cool here is like your your album comes off pretty close to Father's Day.So I was thinking like how great would it be if we could put this like out on Father's Day or maybe like a bit after Father's Day as like a like a c like a celebration.Um love it.So, my final two questions for you because I feel like we talked a lot about like advice for like creatives out there.What do you hope people feel when they listen to Father Figure for the first time?
I hope that people feel more comfortable with themselves after they listen to Father Figure.Yeah.And they feelready for the next day.not to go be a viral sensation or anything like that.Just enough.If I could put enough into this to get you to the next day, that that's genuinely and I and I really mean that.I don't mean the next 10 years.I don't mean perfection.I don't I mean just out of bed the next day.This can get you out of bed the next day for you to keep going in cutting the grass or being a superhero, taking the garbage out or scoring the winning thing in the World Series.Like getting up out of bed the next day is definitely the hope people feel human.Yeah.Yeah.And then, you know, as a father yourself, what do you hope your kids hear?
What do you hope your kids feel when you don't hit me with the waterwork question?What what do I hope what do I hope they feel from the album when they listen to it one day when they get to hear their like their father's album in a sense about being a father
I mean, make me walk through the last 33 years of my life.Um,
my dad must have really loved me.
Yeah, I I do want to like say real quick that like
it has been such an like honor like watching you as an artist like these past like eight years ever since I like discovered the human condition and like to have the opportunity to chat with you today like II've had so many incredible conversations with people but it's like this conversation just means the world and I I was never sure if it was going to happen.M
I feel like you are the best person to talk to about being a creative and being successful in like this day and age be and like even like your like you don't you don't even know who I ambut like your like genuine belief in like just like go for it like try to do like the swings like it's okay to strike out in fact you should strike out.Yeah, you should.And I genuinely like the reason I started behind the wall was to shine a light on the people and stories behind music, but it was also to like help the next generation as creatives.Yes, sir.And like as a creative myself, like these conversations have been genuinely helping me.So I want to say thank you for helping me.But like for anyone watching out there right now, I like I truly believe that this is a conversation that any creative should watch because it shows like what success truly means.
And I feel like for me trying to figure that out in a world that's like so focused on virality and numbers and money and everything like that to see someone like you who has invited me to their hometo stay to be able to have this conversation with you means the world to see how you live your life to see you being a family man and being a successful creative just wanted to say thank you somuch for making this happen man I think to to to give you your flowers has been amazing to watch the things that they've sent me to see how your questions and your curiosity has led you to this basement.You know what I'm saying?Like the fact that that has gotten you there.Just please remain as curious and non-judgmental as you are now.There's I don't feel any hint of you trying to angle me into something or to try to manipulate.
It's your curiosity that's gotten you here in your mind.And I think that that's that's an amazing thing.And who am I to tell you I don't create content?Well, I do in music, but not the way that you're doing it.And I think you're doing a really good job.And I think you've mentioned virality a lot and I think you might be in a in a place in your life where you're juggling a bunch of chainsaws to try to validate and to remain in this space becauseif the views start to go down will I get the response that I and what happens if I'm just known as the there's not a single person on the planet doesn't feel that way every day myself included.So just the curiosity will get you to a place for this to keep growing.The virality is a concern and you're doing a great job attacking it, but one day it could come, one day it could go, one day it comes back.
The other day he's just the guy who did a couple of interviews.What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?Dude, you're more than enough.This conversation's meant a lot to me.And you're a great interviewer.One of the best I've had in in a long time.Just want to encourage you that the virality might be here tomorrow and it might come for the next three years and you might be doing great and the vir might virality might go away, but we're all pretending asthough we are only viral.Meanwhile, we're just trying to do the best job of looking like we're viral all the time cuz deep deep deep down we have these types of conversations that say, "I have to find out what success really means forme.I have to I have to find out what my truth is.What's going to make me actually happy in this world?"
cuz I can feel myself not being happy through the virality or trying to keep up the spinning plates.I just want to let you know just to encourage you that like the spinning plates seems like it's reality.It's just not reality and I think you're going to be totally fine.I think you're doing a great job.That means the world.Yeah.Thank you.Absolutely.At the end of every interview, I also write a thank you card.So, thank you so much for joining us on Behind the Wall.This is what Oh, I'm reading this tonight.I'm reading this tonight.I love it.Thank you so much, John, man, for joining us today on Behind the Wall.Genuine as Genuine as I appreciate you, man.Appreciate you.For real.For real.
Let it wash all over me.